Brock Briggs 0:00  

Hello and welcome to the Scuttlebutt podcast. Our conversation today is with Angie Holbrook. Angie is a retired colonel from the army as of 2019, and is now working in a consultant role. Angie comes to us with some great topics. She's incredibly passionate about, specifically your tribe, and your military transition. We talk about in this episode, How To Build A Tribe and how to cultivate that even after getting out of the service. We also get to talk about her transition out of the service, and how it's been different than she expected. She spent a lot of years coaching people on getting out of the military. 

And it turns out, getting out is much different than she thought. We get to dive into how she tackled those problems and her suggestions for people as they get out. I do wanna give a shout out to Tom McCarthy, Tim's dad who orchestrated our new song intro we've had the last couple of weeks. He put together an original piece of work for us specifically. And I think it's weirdly given us a big boost of validation in the podcast space. We're legit now. We've got our own private orchestration, and we're taking it to the next level. 

I also would like to extend the offer to connect with us. We love getting emails from listeners and are looking to introduce some new show types with varying subjects, not just interviews. You can reach out to us at scuttlebuttpodone@gmail.com. And that is in the show notes, send us an email. We'd love to reach out and talk, love taking requests for interviews and different subject matters. So reach out to us there and we'll be in touch. For now, please enjoy this conversation with Angie Holbrook.

Brock Briggs  2:13  

Angie, it's really great to have you on the show today, really looking forward to our conversation. You were referred to me by one of our previous guests, Kate. And my I wanna kick off our conversation just starting with an interesting quote that you have on your LinkedIn actually, “Find me at the intersection of empowering people and building stronger teams.” Can you start out with what does that mean? And I guess, how do you perceive that?

Angie Holbrook  2:43  

Well, you know, they tell you, when you're transitioning, you should have some kind of flashy line, but I transitioned a little before the flashy lines started popping out there. But I started thinking about what do I want people to know about me. And as, you know, I was an athlete growing up, and I played a lot of different sports. But I gotta be honest, I really enjoyed the team sports a whole lot more than the individual sports. And so those are the, you know, the places I like to find myself is playing on teams and figuring out how, you know, all of us are better than you know, than one of us kind of, you know, idea. 

And so the whole team concept, which really plays well into the military, when you think about how we accomplish stuff in the military. So team building is a huge part of the things that I like to be, you know, part of and for the most part, I've had a lot of success with. So anytime I can play on a team, you know, I mean, I like to play golf, and I like to, you know, tennis and some of those other things. But I much prefer to have other people so that I don't always have to, you know, my issues don't become, you know, the whole cause of the failure or even success, if that happens.

But, you know, I just enjoy playing with other people on my team with me. It’s just a great sense of, you know, I feel like I learned something every time I play on a team, and I like learning new things. So that's a big part of why. And anytime you can see other people succeed through some interaction that you get to be a part of, that's also, you know, that gives off energy and you take away from that, and you grow from that as well. So that's that, empowering others and then building the teams from them. It's just, it's been a huge part of my life.

Brock Briggs  4:23  

You spent 27 years in the Army and retired in 2019, as a colonel, if I have that right. You kind of mentioned the army and maybe the military collectively as a team sport. Do you think it's an individual sport in any way? It's a team, you kind of have that bonding sense, but I think that in a lot of ways, it's also kind of every man for himself on a lot of things in terms of like maybe your own professional like career and development within the organization.

Angie Holbrook  4:54  

Well, I think sometimes I mean, your skills, you have a responsibility to your individual skills that you bring to the equation, I think. And so making sure you're doing the things that hone those skills that improve yourself. That just builds to the, you know, the trajectory of the team when you're bringing your best stuff, right to the game. 

But I mean, I never felt alone. I think that's probably another thing that about the team concept, or the tribe concept that I like to take away is that you don't, you're not in this by yourself, and you've got other people. When you're low, they can help bring you up to the, you know, up to, you know, even keel or you know, head above the water, and you're not, you're doing the same thing for them. So that's a huge part of it. So, yeah, I think you've got a personal responsibility to make sure you're bringing your best, but you wanna do that so that your team can be the best, I think.

Brock Briggs   5:49  

What does that look like from, I guess, the officer level? I guess, Tim and I, we're both spent our entire time enlisted. And I think it's easy to see that the ability to kind of lean on other people like in peer roles, and maybe like kind of one up one down. But you're much more by yourself, I'd imagine, especially like maybe towards the end of your career, when you're the one in charge, and you're maybe looking for somebody to lean on, and there's no next person up the chain. Did you ever feel that or kind of experience a lack of that team at that level?

Angie Holbrook  6:31  

Well, I think, certainly, when you're in a command position, or at the top of the organization, which I was very fortunate to get to do several times in my career. You have to find spaces and pockets where you can, you know, steal away from being, you know, on the platform, so that you can recharge your batteries. And get, you know, like minded people and with kindred spirits, you know, people that you can share your struggles with. But yeah, there are times where it's very lonely, because the decision is yours, and you have to make it and it will affect people's lives and outcomes. 

And so, yeah, there are times when it is a very, it can be a lonely existence when you're, you know, in charge of an organization. But again, that's where I think it goes back to making sure you have parts of your life where you can, you know, go to other people. And they don't have to be in the military. You know, for some people, it's, you know, maybe somebody in their church or a pastor or a counselor or somebody like that, that you respect that you can just go and kind of open kimono and share your struggle with and then be able to get back in the game and get or get back into the, you know, role that you're playing, and feel a little bit more energized about the things that you gotta do that sometimes are very tough.

Brock Briggs  7:44  

Tim, I would love to hear your take on this. 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah

Brock Briggs

But I don't know if I just spent like the my entire time in like, realizing maybe that all of our senior like officers or whatever, like weren't actual people and like they didn't really have problems. But like going through all like the podcasts or whatever, and getting a chance to talk to some people that are in the higher positions way more than I did while I was in. I'm like, oh, like these, I had that exact same problem like it might you just maybe don't hear about it as much.

Tim McCarthy  8:16  

I think that with my first squadron, it seemed like all of the officers, the CO, the EXO, like all the department heads, they were kind of just like these mysterious figures that like when they walked in, you just like stood up and shut the hell up. But in my second squadron, that's when a lot of like the pilots and like the higher end officers kind of were, they were more engaged with the enlisted. And so I think that's when I kind of realized like, oh, yeah, no, these are like, these are normal, like normal people with like, normal everyday problems. This is their job, you know what I mean? But Angie, I agree with everything that you're saying. 

I think that that's something that Brock and I were super lucky with is that we did kind of find our group, our tribe, so to speak relatively quickly. And it makes a big difference, you know, that can like really make or break a person is if you have that support system, that group of people that you can kind of like. Like you said, lean on, excuse me, you can lean on them when you're down and they can kind of pull you back to baseline or vice versa. You know, you kind of pull them up and yeah, it is very interesting to hear a colonel talk about, you know, he’s having the same issues. So, yeah, I agree with what you're saying.

Angie Holbrook  9:40  

You know, there's often a dichotomy that people talk about, you know. Do you wanna be loved? Do you wanna be feared? You know, as a leader, and I used to have this diatribe with one of my senior officers that I, you know, worked for in the latter part of my career, who, incidentally is still in a very high position in our military. And he would always say, “No, I wanna be feared.” And I was like, “No, I'd rather be loved,” and not because, you know, I feel insecure, or I need that or whatever. I mean, I think we all wanna feel valued. But to be loved and in probably to be a little feared too. There's a trust that has to happen there. 

And I think, my, you know, my leadership style is more collaborative. And so I wanted to hear what I knew the best ideas usually came from people that were having to work the problem every day, and I just can't just fly in and go. Yeah, here's the solution, boom, you know. You need to really listen to the people who do this on a regular basis, or do this on a daily basis to really, you know, find out what, how we can solve the problem for good and not just solve it for now, you know.

Tim McCarthy 10:43  

Yeah. I think that there's really something to be said about that whole, like, as a leader, do you wanna be loved? Or do you wanna be feared? I would take “loved” every single time. Because I think as far as being a leader, anytime I've ever been in any sort of like a management or like a leadership role, you'll get a far significant improvement in production when you're loved because that means that people under you, they care enough where they don't wanna disappoint you. 

And so like every good leader I've ever had, whenever I'm, you know, not hitting goal or whatever, I'm not getting the work done. One of my first thoughts is I'm letting so and so down. And that's a significantly better place to be in as somebody on the you know, being the worker, to want to not let your leader down versus if I don't get this done, I'm gonna get my ass chewed or whatever. It's two different forms of motivation. 

And so speaking from personal experience, that's how I decide to lead any position I'm in as a leader. I would much rather have my guys want to get it done, because they care about me versus because they fear me. Plus, I'm not a very scary dude. So it makes it hard.

Angie Holbrook  12:03  

Well, and if you know this, your leaders do, your good leaders are doing the exact same thing

Tim McCarthy

Absolutely!

Angie Holbrook

On the other end of the spectrum. They don't wanna let you down. They want you to be proud of, you know, you and the organization that you're a part of. So yeah, if you're both working at that, with from that mindset, you're gonna be successful.

Tim McCarthy  12:19  

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Brock Briggs  12:22  

Yeah, I think that there's some, that statement is so bad to like the loved or fear because you can be loved but still, like respected. At the same time, it's kind of almost implying that those are at odds, but they're not. And you know, like you said, Tim, the motivation is there. And I think that it's not just letting your boss down. But like, knowing that, hey, they respect you, but they also respect like, hey, I don't have any problem getting in your face. You know, we're friends. 

But like, there's no question about like, who's the boss or whatever. When I worked at, I guess, a little background on me. I worked at a call center for a few years, and I was a manager supervisor with this other woman. And she just like, ruled with the iron fist. Like she was that like, very proud to be that one. She was number one, like the top manager in the entire center. 

But like, every single one of her employees, just they had this look on their face that like if they did something wrong with one toe out of line. And they just came to work scared every day. And you know, I like came in second as like a team or whatever. And my people were like, happy to come to work every day. And I'd like I'll take that every day of the week. 

Angie Holbrook  13:53  

Oh yeah, absolutely. For sure. 

Tim McCarthy

Well, and I think anybody with kids can tell you or even like thinking about your own parents, you can be both. Like you can be loved and feared, like my daughters will tell you, you know, they love me. But when stuffs getting out of line, they fear me. You know what I mean? It's so you can be both too, I suppose.

Angie Holbrook  14:14  

Yeah, people have stood in front of my desk for UCMJ before and I think they would probably. They know when we're not kidding anymore. We're serious business. 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah, absolutely.

Brock Briggs  14:27  

You mentioned one of the things that you think is a good way to kind of avoid, we're talking about everything we were saying before where you go to the people that are doing the things every day and kind of relying on those as like your maybe your subject matter experts. Would that characterize a lot of like how you led throughout your time in or is that something that you came to kind of learn over time?

Angie Holbrook  14:55  

You know, when you first start out, you know, obviously my experience has only been from the officer side of the house. But you know, when you first join, or you first you know, you're a platoon leader, a lieutenant or something, you don't wanna mess up, right? You wanna do your best. Everybody wants to do their best. And you probably think I would say probably that first year, year and a half I was, you know, I was trying to do everything better, faster, you know, everything. And I had a really good platoon sergeant. 

And it's usually a good NCO that takes you aside and goes, “Ma'am, I'm not gonna let you fail, you know. And you're gonna get a great OER. You're gonna get out or that I'm a success when you're a success.” And when I got that, and we were like a power team after that, you know. Because I knew he had 15 plus years experience in what we were doing. And if I listened last, if you know, two ears, one mouth, you know. If I listened more than I talked, we could probably get a lot further. 

And it just taught me a lot. And I think I carried that into rest of my career from there about how listening more than talking is important and listening last or talking last. Because everybody wants to please you, right? And you know, if you come in and you start espousing your thoughts before you let other people talk, you won't get the truth of what you wanna hear from the people. Because they wanna please you, and you'd rather hear really honest, their opinions of how to make something better, you know?

Brock Briggs  16:25  

Yeah, I can so many circumstances have been in like a work. Tim and I both worked in aviation and been in several production meetings where you have like a new ensign or a 102, or whatever. He comes in, and just as like, starts thrashing like senior NCOs. And like saying the way things are gonna be, and it's like, oh, that was not very smart like that. 

You're talking to somebody that's been in for 30 years. And like, they literally can do this blindfolded. And that there's just so much experience there that is kind of being neglected. And probably it doesn't take long of doing that before you get your butt handed to you. 

Angie Holbrook

Yeah

Brock Briggs

Did that ever happen to you early on? Like, did you ever really?

Angie Holbrook 17:14  

Yeah, probably early on. I had, I started my career out in air defense as an air defense officer before I changed over to human resources. And I remember this old crusty worn officer, he used to say, I got socks older than you. And it was, you know, he was like, probably a little bit older than my dad, maybe he had been in Vietnam. 

And so, you know, rather than thinking I knew everything about, you know. This guy who had to call me ma'am, you know. He, you know, he reminded me that, you know, I was here when you got it, you know. I'll be here when you leave kind of thing. So, it was just a perspective that helped me, you know, kind of think about things before I jumped out there and, you know, tried to prove myself a little bit too hard or something. So yeah.

Tim McCarthy 17:58  

I was talking about how in my second squadron, I realized that the officers were kind of normal people. That was the first time I remember seeing for the first time a chief or like an E-7, kind of lay into this ensign, or maybe he was an O-2, but he kind of, you know, they were going back and forth. 

And the ensign tried to kind of pull a power move. And I remember the chief called him by his first name, like, listen, John, this is what we're gonna do. You know, I've been doing this for 23 years. You just got here. Like, that's not the right way to do things. And the officer was like, alright, Chief, like, sounds good. And I was just like, “Oh, my gosh,” you know?

Angie Holbrook  18:43  

Yeah, I think when you realize that disagreement is not disrespect. I think that's another huge thing that you, it takes time to learn as well, that and then remind yourself while you're both there, right? Or while you're out there, you know, to get the job done, right? And get it done well and right. So we keep that in perspective, we can get our egos out of the way. So

Tim McCarthy

Yeah

Brock Briggs  19:03  

I wanna hear what you think about, you were just making a comment about somebody kind of dissing you a little bit like the I got socks older than you. Like Tim and I have talked so much about, there's a very large cultural dynamic in the military about how, and maybe we can even tie it into how you, getting out or whatever. But like, always feeling like there just was something that you didn't do. Like, if only I had done this. 

And it's kind of perpetuated by comments like that. You know, when you're first starting out, you're like, well, I haven't been to the real, in the Navy is the fleet or whatever. And, you know, if I hadn't done this deployment, and it's always just like, you're never quite enough. What do you think about that? And how do you think that that ties into the idea of just like culture and your tribe, I guess, so to speak?

Angie Holbrook  19:58  

Well, I mean, I think there's, it's good to have a little fear about what you don't know about, you know what you haven't experienced yet. So it keeps you honest, right? And it keeps your ego in check when you know that you don't know everything yet. But you know, as you get more comfortable, I think it was probably my O-5 or my lieutenant colonel battalion command, which is closer to like 16, 17 years of service before I feel felt like I was walking in a job that I was fully prepared for, and it wasn't gonna be bigger than me. 

And it was still, I still learned a whole lot in that job. But I mean, you know, I felt like I brought some street cred to the game. But it took a while to do that. And I think it's something you have to guard against as you grow in an organization is that you don't become those people that you remember hearing in your ear, that kind of marginalizing, or that, you know, trying to take you down a couple notches to make sure you know, your head doesn't get too big. You have to kind of be careful with that. 

And I really appreciate, maybe because I'm a woman, I don't know. You know, anytime there's intersectionality of some sort, whether it's race, or sex, or something like that, or gender or something like that, it causes you to look at things a little bit different than somebody who might be in the majority, if you will, or the status quo. So, I mean, it causes you to think more about how you wanna respond to situations and kind of, you know, approach it from a different perspective. I think that's, you know, somewhat helpful. 

I'm not sure I fully answered your question, but that's kind of my idea is to, you know, think about, do I wanna be that person that I didn't, you know, respect or enjoy early on in my career that was kind of browbeating or, you know, marginalizing me? Or do I wanna be the kind of person that, you know, people look up to, or people respect a lot more for the way that I appreciate them? And where they are in our organization and in organizations life kind of, if you will.

Tim McCarthy  21:57  

As somebody who is in for a while, do you have anything that you're like, “Man, I wish I had done this,” or if only I had whatever checked this box. ‘Coz, you know, Brock and I, were on the active for four years. So it was easy for us to leave, going, “Man, you know, if I feel like I didn't do very much I only deployed once or I didn't deploy at all. I mean, as somebody who that you just recently retired, you are in for a substantial amount of time. Do you have anything like that?

Angie Holbrook   22:31  

Well, if anybody says they don't have regrets, I think they're lying to you. I mean, we all have regrets. Because if we don’t have regrets, that means we did it perfectly probably, right? I think, you know, you always want to leave an organization better than you found it. I mean, I think that's a goal, I hope that a lot of leaders have. You know, as I was coming out of service, or getting ready to retire, I think and as I still talked to my friends and subordinates who are still in the service, I think we're getting much more mature with the conversation about the holistic human that is a soldier as a sailors and airmen as a Marine. 

And I think that is huge. So being able to start conversations like that, they didn't get finished while I was in service, and they're still not finished now. But I think we're listening a whole lot more. I mean, 20 plus years of war, if it taught us anything, it taught us that we're not bulletproof, right? And that we have, you know, vulnerabilities, and those aren't bad things all the time. And that we need to be, we need to think at the holistic level or the cellular level for humans, not as, you know, bulletproof. You know, egos, that because you can only do so many tours, and you know, you're gonna sacrifice a whole lot of things when you keep going back to the well like that. 

So I think that didn't get finished for me in uniform, but I'm getting to play roles now where I have conversations. I get to be a part of groups that have a bigger conversation about the soldiers, sailors, airmen and marine. And, you know, mental health, behavioral health, wellbeing, resiliency, all those conversations, those were not conversations that I had early in my career but I feel like now, it's much more a part of when we talk about the whole person concept or you know, or readiness. That's part of the conversation now. I wouldn’t say that's a regret but I'm glad that that's progressing even after I left service. So,

Tim McCarthy  24:35  

Sure, sure 

Brock Briggs

Was there a specific point in time where you notice that the conversation shift and show a more concern for you know, like you said, the whole person, mental health, etc?

Angie Holbrook 24:52  

I think probably so I mean, like you said, 20 years, plus years we were in the global war, if you will. Conflicts in Afghanistan and in Iraq, you know, it's so you're shaped by the events that you live through, right? So when I first joined, I was commissioned the year Desert Storm started, so the 100-hour war, you know. Everybody, the war was almost over before we could, you know, get started with it in Desert Storm, the first time we were in Iraq and Kuwait. And I think everybody in my generation, so 911 happens. I'm about 10 years in service at that point. And everybody was in a rush to get to the war, right? So we couldn't wait to get over there. Because we didn't wanna miss our war, right? That was the thought process with my generation. 

And then, you know, the guys and gals that were in such a hurry, I'd see them a couple years later, and they're about on their third or fourth tour in Iraq or Afghanistan. And they were tired, and they were, you know, spent, and I think we, you know, over after, you know, two or three times to the well, you were like, “Hey, maybe this isn't the greatest thing, you know. Maybe maybe there is more to life than, you know, playing soldier,” or, you know, people are on second and third marriages and things like that. So are kids that, you know, they missed a lot of events for so I think, as we started seeing people either decide to leave the force for that reason, or we saw things like suicide rates and other things, domestic violence, all those, you know, all those metrics that go along with not watching. 

You know, our resiliency and looking for ways to you know, make our resiliency better. I think that was a lot of where it caused, it finally started rising to the level of, you know, senior leaders where they're like, you know, hey, we need to put some, you know, if we don't maintain our weapons, they don't fire for us. And so the same thing goes with our people. We had to look at ways that we can make our people more resilient. And, you know, do the things, do the maintenance that we need to do so that they can be their best so they can perform for us like we need them to.

Brock Briggs  26:53  

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And I wonder if going forward, if the conversation around maintaining, like our weapons. I like that, you know, viewing your soldiers as weapons in a way. If the conversation starts to change around the glamorization of like deploying, or like literally, as we were just talking about that, like never feeling like you're enough. And that's so evident in the fact of everybody trying to, like get to the front lines, because that's what we hold in, like the highest sistine we view. 

You know, in the Marines, I'm not sure about the army, specifically. But I know in the Marines, like, people look for the stripe on their pants on their dress uniform, and they look for the combat ribbon. Like that's the very first thing. And that just basically means that you are something and that is a really quick way to like really have your expectations, I think, let down about your time in the military and your role that you serve. Because when you get over there, and you get that ribbon, and you come back and realize that that's not the road to fulfillment, you're gonna be sad. And you know, it leads to a lot of the things that you were talking about.

Angie Holbrook  28:11  

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I'm as guilty as anyone. I mean, we call them slick sleeves. If you don't have, in the army, on your right shoulder, you wear a patch for the unit you served in combat with and you can wear it for every so you know, depending on which unit you were in, you wear that patch. And if you were in multiple units, you could choose which patch, you know, but forever, I was a slick sleeve. 

And I mean, I didn't get to the fight until 2005. My gosh, I'm late to the game or something, you know, just because of virtue of when my unit rotated into combat, right? And yeah, once, after about, you know, a month or two of seeing what you see in combat, you realize it wasn't all that right? It wasn't, you know, I thought it was something, it wasn't. I mean, I learned a lot and I grew a lot from the experience. And I won't say that I don't. It was an important part of my development. But it did. It can't define me, you know, it's not what makes me “me”, you know, necessarily.

Brock Briggs  29:12  

You brought up something earlier, and I didn't get a chance to kind of like extract it at the time. But you were mentioning the intersection of like, gender and race and how those things like may play into like marginalization in the military. Were there any opportunity or not opportunities, but like instances where you saw or maybe felt marginalized being like a woman in the service? And especially like, it's hard for me to imagine being a woman in the service 20 years ago like that, compared to now. Like I see the problems that we still have now with sexual assault and like all of these things, and I just, it like hurts me to even think about how bad it probably used to be. Was there or I don't know, if you feel like sharing. Is there any ever a time when you maybe felt that?

Angie Holbrook  30:07  

Yeah, I mean, sure, I think it's interesting probably with my generation, and I'm glad it's changing. And I won't say changed. Because I don't think it's a past tense yet, I think it's still. It happens in pockets. But, you know, I remember. So I was an athlete. I was a good runner, and I was fit. So I mean, because I could run, because I could do those things, I had a leg up on other women, right? And I wasn't expected to be as fast as guys, but I happen to be in some cases. And so they left me alone, in a lot of regards.

But you know, there was limits to places I could serve and units I could be in, and those were the units that they got to do a lot of cool stuff, and you move through the ranks faster in. You know, things were said, you know, offhanded, you know, comments or, you know, something, you know, either you people would say things in passing, or whatever, and you just learned to live with some of that conversation, because you realize, you know, you could bucket if you wanted to, and maybe I did a few times, but you realize real fast that you weren't gonna get very far in the conversation. 

And you would get marginalized quicker, if you, you know, popped up every time somebody said something that might offend you, right? And so you just learned to stay down and, you know, skip. You know, it's that nail that's up too high, that gets hammered down. So, but I feel like that's not the case. You know, you're allowed to say when something doesn't, isn't culture, doesn't feel right. Doesn't sound right, isn't right. And, in fact, we're encouraged to call that out, when we see it happening, not just to ourselves, but to others, right? 

I think now and I really appreciate that. I would say, when I think about, you know, a lot of the things that will happen out in the culture, out in the civilian world would be stopped at the door from coming into the military, until “me too.” And I think when “me too” happened, I really saw a lot of the gender comments, gender discrimination. I won't say they fell away, but people would call them out. It was like that thing that happened in our society at that time. We didn't stop that at the door, it got to come in the house. 

And the things that are happening in our culture at large, began to happen inside the military, which I think some of the changes that were starting to happen, say in 2015, 16, 17, 18, with opening up the gender, you know, no role was off limits. Women can serve in any role that they could compete for, and they could, you know, physically do. I think that's probably one of the I would say, if I had a proudest moment was being a part of some of that, you know, changing of the guard there, where we actually let people it was more of a meritocracy than it had ever been, if you're capable, you're allowed. 

And I think that was huge. Whereas before, it was all theoretical, well, a woman can't solve that. So, you know, serve in that role, because, you know, she'll, you know, there was all kinds of fallacies about what we could and couldn't do, rather than what we could or couldn't do, you know, so, anyway,

Tim McCarthy  33:27  

It's interesting for me to, like, think back to the handful of women that I had served with. And one thing that they all had in common, as guys generally show our appreciation and love for somebody by making fun of them. And kind of like, smack talk talking trash, you know. Like, if you walked into any of my shops, or if you listened to like Brock and some of our buddies in at a barbecue, you think we hated each other, you know. And that's just as a guy, that's just how we talked. 

And every time I would work with with a woman who was newer into the Navy, I think that that was always very shocking to them to like, hear the way that these friends interacted. And they would always talk about how you know this shop or the navy or this job or whatever has given me such thick skin because once that girl kind of comes in and is like part of the shop and is friends with everybody, she wasn't off limits either. I mean, she got the trash talk, she got roasted and stuff like that. 

And some of them it was a hard adjustment and we kind of had to learn to okay, we need to. She doesn't appreciate that and then you know, others they kind of adjusted and we're like no, this is how all these guys are showing me that I'm their friend, that they accept me. And so it was, it's funny to see the difference. Some girls built that thick skin and they would throw it right back at you and some girls, they did not like it. And so you're like, okay, my bad. That's just that's how we all like show that we care for each other kind of thing. That's kind of really the only experience that I have as a dude that I can speak on that.

Angie Holbrook  35:23  

Well, it also I think it opened the conversation for other entities that were marginalized I think, too. I mean, you start with women, and you say, let's open that conversation, right? Let's let them into the roles and let them be a part of the same camaraderie that men are and you know, and not let them miss out on locker room talk, because that's part of the building of the team, right? We just have to be respectful about it. 

But I mean, if you think about our openly serving men and women or our trans or binary populations. I mean, those people, I think, women, you know, the probably the same thing that happened in the, as the services were set, or desegregated that happened when race. It didn’t when women were opened into more roles. The conversation widened, and then in that respect that we had there could then be shared with our trans community with our LGBTQ communities. I think it just, it makes us receptive and gets our antenna up to be more thoughtful about all the conversations that we find ourselves in.

Tim McCarthy  36:31  

Yeah, absolutely. I agree.

Brock Briggs  36:35  

You had said something earlier about how the idea of like, getting women into more prominent roles in the military was something that started off and kind of just general society, but made it through the kind of walls of like the military. Are there any other like, issues that you see that you think that the military is insulating, away from that they should be kind of embracing? And I think that it just really represents, like society kind of moves slow as it is, and like the military kind of by default is like, almost even a couple steps behind that. 

Just because we're, I don't know, wanna be a certain way and kind of like have these really high standards, which is good. But it also isn't, certainly isn't super progressive. And I mean, women make fine leaders and better leaders than males, 9 times out of 10, much less emotional on things and fill those roles really well. Like I said, what other issues do you think that the military is insulating out of?

Angie Holbrook  37:48  

I don't know, if I can specifically draw any particulars out, one thing I would say is that.  And I have a son, that's 22. He's a senior in college, getting ready to graduate, and go on to more education. But I think, you know, the military is a representative, or it should be of the country we serve, right? And so as you see the dynamics in our country changing, I hope that we bring some of that same diversity and inclusion into the military. So we're, you know, the World War ll army looked one way, you know. The military that we have today looks much different in complexion, in gender and in roles that we play. 

So I mean, I liked the fact that, you know, when I remember moving, we moved to the DC area, and, you know, I'd come from a Southern, we had been in Texas, and, you know, probably predominantly a white community, not very many, maybe some Hispanic, not a lot of diversity. And my son had some friends over for, you know, play video games. And every one of them are from a different community, right? There's Asian, and there was, you know, Hispanic, and there was, you know, African American, and there, you know, there was, you know, different people from the Middle East. 

I mean, I love the fact that he didn't have very many white friends. I mean, I think it was unique that he had all these different ready. And he didn't see the difference. They were his friends, right? And I think I wanna see a military that gets to that point. And I think some of the changes that's happening is happening because we look like America, right? And I hope we don't, you know, we easily can wall off some of our political or in some of the other divisiveness that we have in our society. 

But I really hope we don't. I really hope we're bringing that goodness across when it comes when you know, when the younger generations that come into our military to serve, bring all that that they're learning in society into the military. The good things that they're learning. Certainly, we got to work on some of the other stuff that's going on with our conversation in America and the right and the left and all that business. But it teaches you to be because you have to work together to get the job done. I think that whole, going back to the whole team concept. So

Brock Briggs  40:09  

While it looks different, it doesn't have to mean lower standards. I think that that's like, everybody thinks that like, oh, well, we're just, you know, letting anybody in now or whatever it's like. Well, if the standards are the same, like, nothing's changing. I'm not sure what the difference is.

Angie Holbrook  40:28  

I still have to do however many pushups I have to do for my age, and, you know, whatever. And, you know, it doesn't change. It’s not gonna change, you know, just because, you know, I'm a woman or, you know, things like that. So

Brock Briggs  40:42  

I will say, I am worried about this younger generation. They might spend more time on TikTok than drilling or any of the obligations that they should be doing. But

Angie Holbrook  40:54  

As long as we take that, you know, their brains and start putting into work and some of the big problems like cybersecurity and all the other domains that we find ourselves in now that are that are different than, say, the land air combat thing that we've been doing for, you know, decades or whatever.

Tim McCarthy  41:11  

I will say, if a war breaks out, the only way we can fight it is Tiktok dances. My nine year old has got that covered.

Angie Holbrook  41:20  

Cool. Well, I mean, I think we're seeing right now, the power of social media and just what's going on in Ukraine, I mean, it's been amazing way that they have. You know, you need to control the narrative, and they're doing a good job of helping with that through whatever means that they can do you know. They may not have the technology of the Russian army, but they certainly have been using the other wares to make sure that they can get the message out there and get the support that they need to help.

Tim McCarthy  41:50  

It's funny that you say that I was just having a conversation with a gentleman that I work with about that, you know. And he was like, “This is crazy, you know, nothing like this has ever happened before. Because you can go on your phone at any time. And you can see videos of the civilians whose neighbors just got blown up, you know.” And I was like, “No, this type of thing has been happening for a long, long time. We're just at the point now where it's right here, it's at our fingertips. Like, you can see how gruesome it is.” 

Rather than reading a fluff piece in the newspaper about it, you are like watching somebody's actual video of this missile coming in. And it's heart wrenching to watch that kind of thing. But it's interesting how social media has kind of changed the way that we get our information in our news, you know. And that's, I think that this gentleman that I was talking to is older, you know, he's older than me, at least. And so it was interesting to see him kind of like have this light bulb moment of like, this has never happened before. Like, this is terrible. It's like, “No, you're just seeing it for the first time.” 

Angie Holbrook  42:58  

Yeah well, I mean, we have to modernize our weapon systems, so that we, you know, keep up with technology. We have to do the same thing with our tactics. And sometimes those tactics are gonna take on different asymmetric kind of approach that we haven't used before that to make it effective. 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah

Brock Briggs  43:14  

What were some changes, I guess in tactics that you maybe saw throughout your time? You talked about how you changed from like, I will put you the verbiage, but kind of like one type of unit to another, like earlier on in your career. What types of changes, I guess, did you see as a result of, can you kind of like, I guess, let's start with explaining that.

Angie Holbrook  43:40  

Sure. Well, so I mean, I came on active duty, right? Like right after the Gulf War, 1991. So, you know, the Berlin Wall had just come down, so Cold War is over. But it's still kind of in its infancy. And we're, you know, moving through the spectrum on what that looks like, and the global environment. And it's interesting, because when you start out your career, you're usually at the tactical level, right? The squad, the platoon, the company battalion. 

And as you spend more time in service, you go up to different levels, where you see different things. And I think probably some of the things that I saw mostly, and remember about two thirds of my career, we were at war, right? So I kind of keep that in my context. I think we realized, like I was talking about little bit earlier, that resilience was a really important part of what we needed to be doing. To keep, you know, service members in service retention of people. 

I think one of the things that I saw us do better over time as I progress was realizing that people aren't disposable. Because you know, if you think about a conscription army or conscription service where everybody served, went in and did two to three years, whatever. And you know, when you had the draft and everything. When you have a volunteer force, people can do their time and leave, right? They just like, I mean, you guys said you serve for four, and then you decided to go do something else with your life. We need a certain percentage of the people to not go somewhere else. We need a certain percentage to stay in the Force. 

Because there's a whole I mean, to train you to be a good infantryman or artillery or aviator, or whatever it is, it costs a lot of money to train one person to do that. And so realizing that, you know, we're not just gonna go back and get another one of those. We need to make sure that we make investments in people. We need to make sure that we give them quality of life where they wanna stay. We give them education, so they wanna stay. 

And so figuring out, I think, probably I would say probably after 911 is where I saw us do a little bit more effective job of figuring out how to retain the quality people that we need to. Because you don't get a colonel in you know, you have to. It takes 20 years to make a colonel, an O-6, right? You don't get one of those. You can't just go back and get another one of those out of the ROTC department, you know, at XYZ university. You actually make one, right? You know, it's not and not everybody assimilates into the military culture. 

So there's some attrition that needs to happen, right? So we can get new blood. But I think one of the things that we're doing a better job of now is understanding that talent is a commodity. And just like corporate America, the military has to figure out how to, you know, be very strategic and keeping quality, talented people in the service, so that we can continue to do, I think was important that what we do for our country.

Brock Briggs  46:45  

I can't help but think that that's true in terms of just like, I feel like the military is in drastic need of kind of a shake up in terms of the incentives. Because you can't just throw money at people anymore. Like that's not and I think that they know that, the whole change in like the retirement system. From the High-3 to the BRS. I think they know that the average tenure of people is dropping significantly and a little bit of that comes with maybe not as active like we don't need as many people. I mean, the Ukraine thing aside, we're not in like wartime really anymore, and don't need as many people but you still have to have those people. What do you think? And I'm sure that you had plenty of conversations about keeping people that were maybe on the verge? How do you think about incentives? And maybe there'll be some correlation to not in the military.

Angie Holbrook 47:50  

Yeah, so I think, you know, we only need to keep 17% of the enlisted force stays to retirement in the army. Yeah, I don't know what it looks like for other services. But I gotta believe it's not much different. And probably about 20 to 25% of the officer corps stays to retirement, meaning stays 20 years, right? So that's, you don't need everybody. But what we also need is people to go back into society and join the guard and the reserves and other things like that. But the experiences that you have in service, when you go back into society, you're also a recruiter, in many ways for the next generation of people to come in. 

So, but one of the things that we got wrong that I hope we're getting right today is it used to all be about needs of the service, right? Needs of the army, needs of the Navy, needs, you know, you're gonna go here, because that's where we need you to go, right? Instead of thinking about, you know, what's the impact of me sending you to like Greenland or, you know, for wherever that you don't want you lost in the woods or something like that. We need to think about making sure that we do good fits for people and their families, which is not something that we necessarily considered early on that people wanna have families, that their spouses also work now. Majority of homes that have two parents, they both work, right? 

And so I think keeping in mind the things that keep corporate America vibrant is the same thing that keeps the military vibrant. And so we need to be thinking about quality of life issues like that, as opposed to throwing money. Now there are times when we throw money at it, you know, for quick fixes, you know, for certain specialties or things like that. But I think the Gen Z and the tail end of millennials, they're a lot less motivated by that than they are the whole work life balance thing we talked about which, it shouldn't be, you know. If COVID taught us anything, it taught us we had to get that straight, right? Because we were living and working from our homes, but I think those are some of the things that we need to keep in mind when we're trying to win the war on talent for our service.

Tim McCarthy  50:00  

I like that, the war on talent. That's a good term. You know, I think back about like when I got out, and I would have told you, yeah, I was motivated by money, but it actually, I wasn't at all. I got out for that, that home life balance. You know, my wife hated where we were stationed. And it wasn't a good place for kids and stuff like that. So at the end of the day, I had to get out for and do what was best for my family. So I've been under the misconception myself until you like, really think about it that, no they just didn't offer me enough money. No, I got out because it wasn't good for my family.

Angie Holbrook  50:39  

Yeah, we have to think about not just the next job you'll do, but the next 2, 3, 4 or 5 jobs you'll do. Because we need a certain percentage of the force to stay with it, right? So that we can develop and grow the force and have senior NCOs and have senior leaders. And if we don't listen to people early on in their careers, they will vote with their feet. And we'll have to go back and get another set to train. And that's expensive. I mean, you know, it's not, it's just like, you know, when we're asking for billions of dollars from Congress, you better make sure we're being good stewards of that money, right?

Tim McCarthy 51:12  

Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. And just listening to your people. You know, like, if they had listened to me when I said, “Hey, you know, this is why I'm getting out. My life would be much easier if I was over here, station that, you know, wherever, then I would stay in, but I'd be forced to stay here. So I have to get out.”

Well, then maybe let's address that. And if it makes sense to keep this person who's you know, who has all these qualifications, we spend all this money to train them up. Well, maybe let's look and see if we can't just switch them over to their on their next duty station or whatever, and help him out rather than just staying tough toddlers. You're where you're at.

Angie Holbrook  51:56  

Right. Yeah. And that's that disposable mentality that I think we had, that we've learned did not serve as well, right? 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah

Angie Holbrook

Yeah

Brock Briggs  52:05  

I mean, family has gotta be like the number one attrition reason. I literally can't think of anything else that probably even comes close to that. The sum of all the other reasons probably doesn't even equal half of family, I have to imagine.

Angie Holbrook  52:20  

Which is weird because we brand ourselves as such a family service, right? It's a family, you come into the Army, Navy, Marines Air Force, it's a family but

Brock Briggs  52:34  

Your family is the people in not, your actual family.

Angie Holbrook  52:38  

If the army had wanted you to have a family, they need to issue you one. 

Tim McCarthy

Yes. Oh, yeah.

Angie Holbrook

That should be the mentality. And we have to change that. And again, I think that's one of those culture things that we're gonna learn a lot from iGen, you know, Gen Z or whatever. As they come through, I'm hoping my son's generation is not that he's chosen to serve, because he was a military brat for 18 years. So he gets it. But, you know, I want us to bring some of that some of what's being demanded in corporate America today from the workforce. I want that to be demanded of the military, because then we can definitely get the talent that, you know, talented people to stay.

Brock Briggs  53:18  

I'm thinking of just like the current state of workers in America. And I mean, these are very driven, like COVID, and just as all these other problems that are driving this. But like, if you're looking for a job right now, this might be like the most leverage that you've ever had, and might ever have, like, period. 

Angie Holbrook

Right

Brock Briggs

Like people really, really need quality people. And there might be a really strong delay on how that impacts the military. But if you're a young person, you know, there's just like all these other we've got freakin’ YouTube stars that are 15, 16 years old. And like, what kind of incentives can the military offer them other than just the satisfaction of like serving their country? Which maybe that's ignorant, and I'm not trying to put it down, but like that's kind of the appeal. And there may need to be something more that's offered to kind of, like you said, recruit top talent and address cyber issues and really like a forward, techy future, I guess.

Angie Holbrook  54:24  

Yeah, no, I was a Chief People Officer since I've been out of the military, and it's totally, the pendulum has swung back into the employees’ favor. And I think that's not a bad thing. I think, what it causes leadership and you know, corporate leadership as well as the military leadership, to do is, not to placate or coddle them, but to actually listen to them and what their desires are for what their development needs to be. I mean, you need to make sure that you and not be short sighted when you hire somebody. You're not just hiring them from that job. It's for the future jobs that they might do with your organization. 

Because we know that retention is much cheaper than attrition, right? And so we need to make sure that we're making the investments. And I think, when an individual feels like their company, or their organization is doing that for them, and they're listening to them and doing the things that are in their best interest, not just the bottom line, I think that it's a huge, it's that whole trust thing that we talked about early on, about why you wanna follow the right leader because you trust them.

Brock Briggs  55:31  

Want to start getting into like your transition and would love to kind of hear about what you do now. But like, I guess one of the big questions that I had going into this interview in regards to your transition is you've probably coached like, hundreds, like maybe 1000s of people on like getting out of the service, and you've never actually done it yourself. 

I would love to hear how it's different as you have gone through it versus like kind of maybe your prior expectations. Transitioning was like a big deal for Tim and I, like and even just four years and like I remember how much I struggled with that. I can't even imagine what that probably feels like after literally a lifetime really in service.

Angie Holbrook  56:25  

Yeah, well, you know, it's interesting because when you're in the military, you wouldn't think twice about going somewhere without your battle buddy, right? You wouldn't leave the post or the base or the fob, or the you know, cop or whatever. You travel in with your squad, right? You travel with your tribe. But for some reason, we seem to think we take the uniform off, and we leave our tribe back at the barracks, right? Or we leave our tribe back at the unit or something. 

And honestly, that is probably one of the fallacies that we need to, you know, recur. You know, narratives that we need to change, I think is that you need that tribe even more as you transition because there's so many things that are changing about your way of life. So narrative did not go as I had wanted and my career did not end as I would have liked, you know. I didn't rise to be the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. I know, shocker. At some point, you don't get picked for a kickball team. And you get told, “Hey, I appreciate your service. But you know, you might wanna think about doing something else,” you know, and I didn't get kicked out. It was a natural trajectory. 

After the jobs I had done that if you don't bump to the next level, it's probably time to transition. And so having honest conversations with people about when's the right time for them and letting them shape it, is much better than you know, wait until you've overstayed your welcome or something, right? So I think that's one of the first things I would say is we need to be having honest conversations with the people that we lead, whether it's in corporate America or in the military about when it's time for you to go do what is the next thing that you wanna do is, right? It's something that aligns with your goals and stuff. 

For me, one of the things, one of the good advice pieces that I got was go talk to your tribe, go talk to your network of people that are already on the other side first. That's one of the first things that I did was I had conversations with people I respected that were on the other side that had transitioned maybe 5, 10 even longer years. And told them what I was interested in, you know, told her the things that I was passionate about, the things that I wanted to be involved in. And it did two things for me. It helped me in a safe place, talk about my fears about what you know, can I do this? Can I make a living doing this? You know, all those different conversations you have, because you've been getting a steady paycheck, you know.

And you know, every month and now that's gonna change a little bit, depending on if you're retiring or just getting out. And so one of the, it was a safe place to have a conversation about what's next. And then it also, I now have a sponsor who's also fishing for me. Does that make sense? So, you know, I talked to five or six people that I really respect and trust and guess what they're doing. They're talking to their networks, about one of their, you know, mentees or their protegees that they, you know, that they work with, or you know, have a relationship with. And all of a sudden, I've got five or six people looking for me a job, not just me, right? 

And so that was one of the smart things that somebody you know, kind of coached me to do. And that's exactly how I fell into my first you know, gig out of the army was a consulting role that one of my previous, you know, supervisors found that you know, found that I was a good fit for. So I think that was one of the good things that I was coached on early on when it came to transitioning.

The other thing I would say is my superpower during service was compartmentalization. And that can be good. And that can be bad. So I think one of the things that I would tell people is to, before you have to go turn in all your supply gear, you know. And literally, you probably have some other things you need to be unpacking before you, you know, before you sign your DD 214, or whatever. Make sure that you begin to work through those emotional issues and other things that are probably in that tough box that you brought home from Iraq or Afghanistan that you really haven't gone through since you left there. And I think that can go into a whole lot of different areas. We could talk about more, but those are some of the things that I would say to as well as for transition.

Brock Briggs  1:00:43  

One of the, this is like kind of a hard subject, I guess, because it kind of borderlines on a part of the reason that this podcast came to be is because Tim and I like maybe didn't necessarily feel like we weren't equipped to, like get out like that, that one week thing about writing a resume and whatever. Like that, for some reason, just didn't cut the mustard on. Like even hitting the tip of the iceberg on like all of the things that you just said, I don't think that I even knew anybody that had already gotten out of the Navy.

Or, and maybe a lot of that stuff comes with just being in for longer, and being there for such a short duration you're exposed to so few people. I guess, how do you start? What is the responsibility of the military in taking that on? It's not their job to like, set us up with a job when we get out? But do you think that there's room for improvement on their side? And then how can maybe we improve as soldiers or airmen or whatever to kind of like, begin to unpack those things like you're saying?

Angie Holbrook   1:02:03  

Yeah, so one of the things that I would, the first thing I would say is no it's not their job to get you a job. But for the first year after you separate transition, whatever, if you go on unemployment, guess who pays that bill? The Department of Defense pays that bill. So yeah, it kind is responsibility to us to help them transition appropriately. Because that's money that we now have to shift from somewhere else, you know, to pay those unemployment claims, because that bill comes to the DoD, right? 

So that one of the things that I would say, and we have to remember. I don't know, how about you guys just transitioned, but it seems like we wanna get every ounce of days out of the person before they send that 214 and go on and there needs to be a real live, no kidding, not on the job anymore, not on, you know, on production anymore. Time where you transition, which means all the things that it means, filing your VA claim, you know, getting in touch with corporate, you know, fellowships, or internships. Or, you know, all the Hiring Our Heroes things that are out there now that corporate America is really trying to help with the transition. 

So, you know, six months out is probably a start, you know. And they tell people that have been in longer, you need to start sooner. So, you know, I think it may be unreasonable to say to a person who's on a three year, four year enlistment, that, you know, I'm gonna give you a year to transition. But I think at six months out, very few of those people change their mind and stay in, you know, six months out from their ETS state. So I think that one of the things that we can do, we put the unit in a mind because they are not gonna get a replacement for you until you're off the books, right? 

And you know, so they're gonna try to get as much work out of you as they can. But then we don't do you any favors, because we work you up to the last day. So I think those are some things that we could do to do a better job of, you know, saying, “Okay, six months out to the day you separate. You're no longer, you don't come to PT formation. You don't, you know, you don't go on a deployment. You transition, that's your full time job. And we actually don't just put words to it, we actually put action to it. I think it would be something that we definitely could be doing better job of.

Tim McCarthy  1:04:18  

I really like that. I think it's, I noticed probably around my six month mark whereas six months of getting out, there was kind of like the shift. And Brock, maybe you can agree or disagree but there's kind of this shift in the higher ranking. You know, my officers, my chief stuff like that, this shift in opinion of me, you know, I went from this good technician to six months out. 

At one point I actually had one of my chiefs pull me aside and say “Hey, I know you don't give a shit anymore. But like you need to get this done.” And I wasn't even the sailor who had been assigned the job. You know, that was the first I'd been hearing of it. But I was kind of like, “What? Like, you never told me about this? And why do you think I don't give a shit?” And it was just kind of this shift and like, well, he's getting out, so forget him. We don't you know, he doesn't care. We don't care about him. 

And I think I mean, even like you said, Brock and I were only in it for four years. So it's probably not fair to give somebody a year. I think even six months might be a little bit long. If they had given me three months to get my life in order after the fact, that would have been, night and day, that would have saved me the six months of struggle when I got out to kind of get my feet on the ground and figure my shit out before, you know, before I actually did. Brock, did you kind of experience that same, like shift in the way that you were kind of perceived?

Brock Briggs  1:05:57  

Yeah, definitely kind of like written off. 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah 

Brock Briggs

And like, it was a little bit different. Like I was in charge of the shop still up until like, I literally had to fly off the boat to go home and like, pack because we were out to sea at the time. Like, there was literally no, like, I've literally working up until the day. So yeah, so I definitely felt that and it also highlights to, I feel like you can almost maybe even like extend the contract, like make people's contracts for years and six months. 

And so then it's like, you know, that maybe they're accounting for having to pay people unemployment anyway, cut that in half. And then you just keep people like, don't even count them as workers for that time. And just make sure that they're getting into interviews and stuff. Because there are a lot of problems that come up after the fact that like, you don't even know what to ask, like the VA claim. Like I dealt with all my VA stuff like four to six months after. 

And then like, that's way past the point of like, being able to ask anybody questions. You're like, totally navigating that on your own. And like, you don't know, when stuff can start being filed. And yeah, it almost like there needs to be another tax class, like six months after you get out. And it's like, “Okay, what did you run into?” Yeah. Are you having trouble getting your medical benefits or schooling? Like, what have you had trouble with? 

Angie Holbrook

Yeah

Brock Briggs  1:07:27  

But yeah

Angie Holbrook

We lose people off the scope, once they send the 214. I think that's part of the issue is that if we could, you could kind of go into. So when you come into the military, you go through a basic training, right? You go through a training base, and then you know, you get issued your uniforms, and you get a haircut, and you get, you know, all these things. 

And we put you through training, and then we send you to your unit. There almost needs to be a reverse process of that. When you step off, and you're, you know, you've signed your 214, your VA claim has already filed and you know, your disability rating right then, which opens up doors or not, depending, you know, depending on what your rating is.

And then, you know, if you choose the path of education, you know, we've been able to help you assist you with, you know, the university or trade school or vocational school you wanna go to and you know, all those other things. If we use the same, you know, rigor that we brought you in to take you out, I feel like we could do right by you better. Personally, that's just my thoughts. 

Brock Briggs  1:08:28  

Yeah, I have a quote here from you. That's kind of I think, related to something different. But I think that it speaks to what we're talking about kind of just the same as from a task and purpose article. You said, “Our warrior culture is not set up to recognize seeing problems short of losing a body part or blood gushing from an orifice.” And the article was about kind of looking at emotional, like behavioral suicide problems. 

And we can definitely get into that if you wanna go that direction. But I think that that, it's like, it's kind of not their problem. And I'm not here to like, kind of point my finger or anything, but it's just, I think, an area that the military as an organization can improve. And, like, I think I could speak for most people. We wanna be prepared, and we'll do the work. It's just like, sometimes you don't know what to do. There are probably a lot of people that don't care, and that's fine for them. But for those of us that do wanna succeed and like do well than knowing how to go about getting that to happen is a good place to start.

Angie Holbrook 1:09:38  

Yeah, no, I mean, I'm very transparent about some of the frustrations and challenges I had when you know, I was in combat twice and I had some based on the roles that I played. I have some PTSD that's associated with it, and I had to work through that. And you know, because my superpower’s compartmentalization, I did not deal with it until it dealt with me, right? And toward the end of my career as I was, I could see in view that I would be taking the uniform off, and really trying to search for who I was and who I was outside of uniform and outside of the army. 

But I think, you know, it's really easy to see somebody who's lost an arm or leg and see, oh, well, obviously, that's gonna affect their ability to do XY and Z. But when we don't see some body part missing, we don't make the leap that there can be just as detrimental. A disability there or a challenge there as they're where you are with somebody who's lost a body part. And when I was a commander, I really wanted to work hard on, you know, a behavioral health issue and a broken leg work readiness issues. 

In my mind, they kept you from being your best. And it kept us from being our best. And so I think that we can look at it like, in the same way we look like any other infirmity. I think it gives weight to the issues that we have with our mental health, and our mental well being and it puts it on the same even par with the other things that you know, that we, you know, things that get broken or hurt along the way.

Brock Briggs  1:11:13  

Yeah, I think that certainly the first step is just getting some of that validation there and like, at least the door to, for people to walk through in case that they need it. When people are afraid of bringing up problems for fear of, you know, losing security clearance and getting kicked off duty stations and stuff like that, I don't think that that really sets the incentives up for people to pursue help.

Angie Holbrook  1:11:44  

No, and it's exacerbated the longer you're in, because the longer you're in, the higher you go, and the more responsibility you're given, and clearance and things like that. And so we build this culture of, you know, don't ask for help, because they'll see you as weak and I really think while that stigma is going away, I don't think it's gone away. 

And I think we have to continually fight to make sure that we recognize that it is important for force readiness is any other factor, you know. That is out there that we need to manage, like weapons qualification, or physical fitness, or whatever is our mental well being, you know. It's just another indicator of our readiness and our effectiveness. 

You know, and we have a responsibility when we finish with you to at least, we might not leave you better than we found you in every way. But we need to make a good faith effort to do what we can do to shore up anything that we you know, that we inflicted upon you while you are in service, you know.

Brock Briggs  1:12:48  

Unless you're better than we found you. That's funny. Very true. Very, very true. I want to hear a little bit about what you're doing now. You said that some of your role getting out of this service was kind of sponsored by your network and kind of finding that. Talk to us a little bit about what your role is now. What your thoughts are on it, transitioning maybe to jobs generally for anybody coming out?

Angie Holbrook  1:13:17  

Sure. Well, I think I'm trying to do the same thing that was done for me in many cases. So, you know, I have conversation, I still mentor people that are still in service. And I'm appreciative that they still take my calls, or that they still wanna, yeah, they want my leadership. And so I mean, I share with them, you know, some of the things that you struggle with as you get out, besides having to match your clothes, which you never had to worry about before. 

Tim McCarthy

That is a real problem, I can tell you.

Angie Holbrook

Yes. You can get away with yoga pants in a zoom call. But you know, you can't do that in a boardroom or something. So, you know, anything from that to the VA navigating the VA, which we all know, could be better, right? And hopefully with some of the initiatives that I've been reading about more recently, I'm hopeful that is, I'm an eternal optimist. The VA challenges me on a regular basis. 

And then, you know, just making investments in other parts of your life that we sometimes put on hold until we leave the service. You know, I tell people that needs to be as part of every decision you make about staying in or getting out. Don't just wait until you know somebody's got divorce papers pending for you, you know. Make sure that you're having those conversations all along the way. I think that's huge. As far as the work that I do, I'm involved in a lot of nonprofit in volunteer organizations related to women in the military and veterans, whether it's in the mental health arena, or others. 

I like to think that those are complemented by the experiences that I've had in service. Also, what I do for pay, for compensation, is I work for a management consulting firm, a woman owned veteran owned small business that works really closely with the Department of Defense and a lot of different initiatives, and many of them are in the human capital human resource resiliency aspect. 

And so being able to bring solutions to the services, probably more specifically, the army, because that's the one I am most familiar with, and work with the most. To fix things that I couldn't fix when I was in uniform, you know, to bring solutions to kind of an outside perspective. What I'm really appreciative is the people that I served with, this is why you never burn a bridge. Because those people are now in the seats that I used to sit in. And so they will have conversations with me as they're looking for, you know, new, innovative ways to take care of the force. So I'm really appreciative that I get to keep having those conversations. Now that I've taken my uniform off.

Brock Briggs  1:16:02  

I wanna point out to anybody listening that this is a 27 year service member, that is still working and needs a paycheck. If there's one thing that I cannot stand is the joke, or like the running thing about people retiring, and that they're just gonna like coast off into the sunset and like not have to work when you get out. It's bogus, like you do need a job. Like, you're a great testament to that. So thank you.

Angie Holbrook  1:16:29  

And even if you didn't need the money, you need to find a way to spend your days that is gratifying and where you bring value and have you know, are valued, I think. So I can find no better place to do that than the organization that I just left, right? And being still part of that in some way.

Brock Briggs  1:16:49  

You think that you have a louder voice in the position that you're in now to influence the organization that you were once a part of? And why? If that's so, why, because I think that that's a problem?

Angie Holbrook  1:17:11  

Well, I don't think it's louder. I think it's a different whispering in ears, as opposed to standing in front of and giving orders. So I think that's probably, I've just changed my approach. I think that's probably how I would say it is that I use the opportunities I have, and the relationships that I've built over the years to have conversations with people. And I'm not held back in any regard now. So I have no, I'm not trying to make the next rank. 

You know, I don't have anything else they're gonna put on my uniform that you know, shows that you know, accomplish some different goal or something to get a medal. But I really relish the opportunity that I get to have to keep having the conversations that I really enjoyed having when I was in service. So being able to influence and shape and coach and you know, anytime you can tell somebody where the pothole or the IED is before they have to hit it, it's always a good thing, right? So they can avoid it, right?

Tim McCarthy  1:18:11  

Does that not being worried about you know, getting that metal or one more thing on the uniform? Is that a little bit more liberating and allow you to act more free than maybe you did in the army?

Angie Holbrook  1:18:23  

Oh, definitely. I mean, not that I did anything in the army for rank, but I mean

Tim McCarthy

Sure

Angie Holbrook

Certainly you have bearing you have to keep obviously, you know, just decorum, right? But it is freeing because it's all about what your motivation is, right? And so if my motivation is not to make the next rank or whatever, then it's you're gonna get God's honest truth from me. You know, you're not gonna get something that smells that looks pretty but doesn't smell so good after lighting or something.

Tim McCarthy  1:18:54  

Sure, yeah, I get it.

Brock Briggs  1:18:58  

I guess what does that look like? That role looks like on a day to day basis. I think of the handful of like senior officers, I guess that I've talked to about like what they do since they get out. I think 90% of them are consultants. So that must be a very popular title, or very, like broad reaching for a number of things. Can you maybe talk a little bit about what that looks like, I guess on a day to day basis and what types of things I guess you're doing?

Angie Holbrook  1:19:30  

Sure. Well, reveille is not a 0600 every morning.

Brock Briggs

Oh, thank God!

Angie Holbrook

But it's not far off because I still wanna keep myself fit and I wanna you know, the dog isn't gonna let me slouch. He still needs to be walked and you know, we still wanna make sure we're doing all the good stuff there. I probably spend anywhere I mean, because we can do so much stuff remotely now. I work out at my home, do a lot of calls, zoom calls and teams meetings with folks both in the government and outside the government related to whatever project I might be working on. Or just having conversations about projects that we might work on together. 

So that, you know, I probably spend anywhere from four to five hours a day doing that, depending on what day of the week it is. There's room in there for golf, when I wanna play, you know, or bike rides and things like that. It's not the linear nine to five, necessarily, that you see, some people go into.

And I really liked that flexibility for one that gives me you know, if I wanna go do something a little different, or need to take more than a lunch hour, I can do that. So, but I'm not killing myself, I'm not, you know, I'm not punching the clock. And, I continue to get to do other things in my free time. Like things that I'm passionate about, volunteering for different organizations, or being a part of my local community, which I think is my third chapter that I'm gonna start in you know, not too distant future. So

Brock Briggs  1:21:04  

Very cool. Yeah. I guess, is the “consulting market”, is that like something that's in high demand? Or is there a large need for that coming from the government, DOD, whatever? Cuz, like I said, all of these people that I've talked to, they're all consultants, and they all literally work with the people that they were just working with.

Angie Holbrook 1:21:27  

Yeah, well, and I mean, some of it you need because I mean, like you said, it takes a long time to build a colonel, right? And you don't wanna just let all that, you know, all that experience, walk out the door. Because who's gonna help, you know, train the next generation of folks. And so, you know, a lot of what I do is coaching folks that are in the roles that I used to play in. And I think with the DOD, specifically, you see that with a lot of senior NCOs, and officers that do enter the consulting world. 

But it's a way to, I mean, certainly, there's a bottom line out there. You know, whether you're selling a weapon system or service or something, there's money to be made. And so, you know, there's the contracting aspect of the government and what the government needs to do to be able to continue to be competitive. But, you know, all in all, I think it's more of a, you see it in corporate America as well. You know, a lot of consultants don't just work in the public sector, which is the federal or state or local government. But they also take some of those things, same things that they learned in service and take it into corporate America, and help coach and you know, use some of those tools that they learned in service to help those organizations improve as well. So

Brock Briggs  1:22:45  

Yeah, I'm always kind of interested to hear and kind of like, extract a little bit different career opportunities and see what people are kind of up against when it comes to getting out. Kind of wanna close out here with an abbreviated quote that I have. I did all this research. I'm not, I don't mean to be calling you out here, but it's a good one. It said something to the effect of how I spend my time equates to what value I assign to things. I wanna hear from you. What you think is worth valuing, and what is worth spending our time on?

Angie Holbrook  1:23:24  

Well, so the genesis of that quote, or that epitaph or whatever, it came from an exercise we did in one of my pre command training courses. And so I put it in every leadership philosophy that I ever published, or whatever is, time spent equals value assigned. It's a math problem, right? And so, we did this exercise where we took, and we listed all the things that we said were important to us, the things we valued, the things that are important to us, you know, whatever. 

And then we took our calendars for six weeks, and we looked at how we were spending our time every day, you know. How many days, you know, week you work and how many hours a day. And, you know, did you see the things on your values list that show up in your calendar? Yes, no? And so what we found was we're spending a lot of time doing things that weren't on our values list. And so the learning point was, I need to make sure that if I say this is important to me, that I'm spending time doing it, right? 

And it shows up regularly in my cadence, in my daily life. And, you know, that has changed over time for me. I mean, in the beginning, you know, single lieutenant, no kids, no spouse looks a whole lot different than it does, you know, now, right? You know, 30 something years later. But I think the things that I value now are things that are gonna outlive me for one, you know. And the things that I can invest in others and see them succeed. I think those are the things that I find myself showing up more on my calendar now than maybe previously.

Brock Briggs  1:25:08  

Like that, it seems, it's so weird when you kind of are called on the car a ton, you're like, “Oh, you know, this is really important to me.” But you're like, “Okay, well, what are you doing about it?” And sometimes there's a large disparity in between those two.

Tim McCarthy  1:25:23  

I think that's super important for progressing, being successful at anything in life. And that's one thing that I tried to take from Brock. Actually, Brock is really good at recognizing when, you know, you're spending all this time spinning your wheels, so to speak, but you're not making any traction. So we need to pivot and let's okay, this actually is not important to me. I need to focus on what is important to me. And I think that that's a very, very good way to make sure that you're always progressing and eventually becoming successful in anything you're doing, whether that's at home being a husband, or a wife, father, mother, your job, whatever, I think that’s very important.

Angie Holbrook  1:26:08  

Well, and I don't know if this happens for everybody. But here's how I know when I'm off. I'm shorter with people. I'm intolerant of people. And I'm not as joyful. 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah

Angie Holbrook

On a daily basis. When I start seeing that creep in my psyche, or whatever, then I know, “Hey, something's not right. I need to recalibrate. I need to get back on track.” 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah, I like that.

Brock Briggs  1:26:30  

How do we, or I guess, how do you recalibrate? And maybe we can take some things from that.

Angie Holbrook  1:26:37  

Well, I'm, you know, I was not a big fan of mindfulness, but I'm a huge fan now. So starting and ending, and as often as needed during the day. When something gets me out of balance, I use things like, you know, we get so many apps out there today that help with that. Even just some box breathing, or some of that is helpful to just reset your head and get some more oxygen to your brain. 

Spend some time in physical activity, that's another huge way you can do it. And you don't have to run the New York Marathon. You just have to get out your front door and you know, get around the block ones and set reasonable goals for yourself. And yeah, those are ways that and I love bragging about my kid and watching you know, talking to people about all the things that he's involved in. And you know, sharing the parts of my life that bring me joy with others. I think those are some things that I use to help keep myself balanced.

Brock Briggs  1:27:33  

Like that. I am a big advocate for walking. I somehow in the last like six months, I really started walking a bunch. I probably go on two a day now, just like get some work done. Go get like a good reset for 15 minutes, come back. And yeah, I've got a nice pathway worked into the ground or out of my neighborhood. Are you reading anything interesting right now? And where can people go to follow along with you or reach out to you, if you want that?

Angie Holbrook  1:28:02  

Sure. Absolutely. Well, I will never say no to you know, there's a lot of social media platforms on there and I'm on most of them. But I would say that LinkedIn is probably if you wanna connect with me through LinkedIn. I'm Angie Holbrook, I'm on LinkedIn and I pretty much take all comers so if you do wanna have a conversation with me or you're interested in something we talked about here today, I'm certainly open to that. The other part of your question I jump to the second part first, your first part was? 

Tim McCarthy and Brock Briggs

Are you reading anything good?

Angie Holbrook

I knew and it was in there somewhere. I'll be honest, I'm reading right now. I am reading Atlas of the Heart by Brene Brown. Whoo I'm a big fan of Brene Brown and anything by Adam Grant or Simon Sinek seems to show up in my audible or on my Kindle or whatever. So those are definitely ones but I mean I do some fiction too. I love any kind of spy crime thriller, legal thriller. Those are ones that I also enjoy, too so.

Brock Briggs  1:29:13  

Legal thriller, that's a category I did not know existed. 

Angie Holbrook  1:29:17  

Yeah well, I'm so you know, my kids getting ready to go to law school next year. So I'm trying to get smart on it so that when he comes along, right? You know, I can say, oh, no, you gotta object to that when you go into court. 

Tim McCarthy

Right, right. That's funny.

Brock Briggs  1:29:30  

It sounds like maybe some time to convince him to go jag or,

Angie Holbrook 1:29:36  

If I can, I will. I'm always advocate for service to our nation. So

Brock Briggs  1:29:44  

Awesome. Angie, this has been fantastic. Thank you so much for coming on today. 

Tim McCarthy

Yeah, thank you!

Angie Holbrook

Thanks, guys! I appreciate you having me. 

Tim McCarthy  1:29:48  

Yeah, of course.

-END-