Brock Briggs  0:26  

Welcome to the Scuttlebutt podcast. I'm speaking with Maureen Elias today, who is currently the Deputy Chief of Staff of the Department of Veteran Affairs. We cover a few of the larger challenges facing veterans in this conversation, everything from navigating a medical discharge to return to the workforce after an extended period of time away. After her exit, Maureen spend time at home raising three kids before getting the call to pursue veterans advocacy. Maureen’s story is an inspiring one. 

Over the last few years since my exit, I've spent a lot of time thinking about what I'm supposed to be doing, the issues I care about and where my time is best spent. Maureen talks about this light bulb moment where it became clear to her what her path was, that moment came after years of spent raising three kids, pursuing two degrees and years worked across multiple veterans organizations. This story is a good reminder that it's okay to not know where you're headed, as long as you're working every day to find out. That comes through continuous trial and error and embracing new places and jobs that seems scary. 

I was really eager to hear about Maureen’s experience and exposure with the veteran service organizations that she's worked with. I found the links to all of them and a few extras, you can check those out in the show notes. It's a bit overwhelming all of the resources that are available to current and former service members. But knowledge and awareness are only half the battle, you can take it from there. Please enjoy this conversation with Maureen Elias. 

Brock Briggs

There have actually been a couple of times where I have like talked to like people in an interview or whatever, and kind of not mentioning any names, but I after the fact like tell the story. And I'm like, man, I really hope that they maybe like part of me is like I hope they don't listen to it. But the other part of me is like I hope they listen to that. 

Maureen Elias

And they know it’s them that I’m talking about

Brock Briggs

I'm subtweeting you like I'm doing all of that. That was indirect attack. I know that you probably care about this just a little bit to sacrifice, one we were talking before you earlier, and you were saying that you really were relying on Kate's judgment for this. But to give up your Saturday morning on a holiday weekend is quite the vote of confidence. So thank you.

Maureen Elias  2:52  

Yeah. You're welcome. You’ve earned it. 

Brock Briggs  2:56  

I don't know about that. I work and earn it, hopefully can bring some good conversation and really measured up to that. Do you want to start with your disclaimer? I know that you wanna get that out of the way.

Maureen Elias  3:10  

Yeah, sure. So I just wanna let everyone know that I'm here in my own time and in my own capacity. And I'm not in my official position, and that the views I'm expressing are my own and not that of the organization that I work for.

Brock Briggs  3:22  

Oh, good. Did the VA write that up for you? Or did you have to come up with something?

Maureen Elias  3:29  

I mean, I had to do the same thing when I worked on the committee. It's just kind of, you know, making clear boundaries. So that you know, what's being said it's understood that this is me, Maureen Elias saying and I'm not whoever presented my day job.

Brock Briggs  3:41  

Yeah, absolutely. We've had a couple of people that had to give the disclaimers. And the first time it happened was like, Oh, I must be talking to somebody good here you know. Like but yeah no this is, I'm really looking forward to chat with you. I want to start out towards the end of your service and you getting out of the military bond and medical discharge, you started from 01 to 2006. And then we're looking at a medical discharge, what were kind of some of the events that were leading up to that? Because I think that that really sets the backdrop for a lot of your history. And that's hopefully not me imposing that on you. That's just from my readings of you.

Maureen Elias  4:32  

Sure. So that was probably one of the hardest moments of my life. I loved being in the military. It was the thing that I had wanted to do for so long. And so the choice to undergo a medical discharge and then learning that I was being discharged was just heartbreaking for me. But we you know, so I had actually gotten hurt in basic training. I was a ballerina in a previous life and had super high arches. And in basic training without the right boots, without the right supports, my arches completely collapsed leading to plantar fasciitis in both feet that they just couldn't treat. 

And so I kind of suffered my way through it, had a permanent profile and realized once I got to the Defense Language Institute, and I was a leader like walking around in sneakers, not being able to participate in the events with my troops. It just, it made me feel like a bit of a failure as a leader because I wanted to be in there with them. And I wanted to do it with them. And instead, I was standing on the sideline in sneakers and my troops affectionately called me Sergeant sneaks and I thought it was really cute. 

And it also kind of reminded me of that different miss. And I also had experienced a back injury in AIT that continued to degenerate. So by this point, I was also in a lot of pain, just standing in formation for more than like one or two minutes, it was just excruciating. And so then I had another profile that like had me standing at the back of formation, so I couldn't even be with my troops in formation. And the pain was pretty high. And so we realized that my husband and I had a conversation that, you know, maybe this is the time we have two very little children. 

And at the time, we thought they were kind of brats because they just were really difficult children. And so we were like, you know, one of us probably needs to get out and take care of the kids and you're hurt. And so this seems like an opportune time. But I do think it's worth making sure to mention that my husband did offer like he would have left the service if I wanted to try to stay in, but the pain was high enough. And the recognition that like he would be able to lead better than I could. He was completely physically fit. And he was like one of those crazy fast runners that like would just do satellites around me as I was dying on the road. 

And so, you know, the medical board came and passed, and they decided it was time for me to be let out. And it broke my heart leaving the men and women I served with, leaving the military that I had longed to join and be a part of, a job that I loved. And as life happens, it turned out to be the perfect thing because our two children ended up having autism. And so I went out and just made them my full time job. And, you know, at the time, autism wasn't a household word. And so it was a lot of work, a lot of advocacy, a lot of educating the community. But there was definitely like, every day, since I have left the military, I miss being in the military. And while I don't regret the decision, because it was the right thing for our family, it was and this still one of the hardest decisions I've ever had to go through.

Brock Briggs  7:36  

I can't imagine that where you're like wanting to stay in but like physically speaking, are unable to. I think that there are a lot of people that have experienced that. And it's hard as somebody who hasn't gone through that to really fathom the type of mental kind of burden that that would lay on you. The military really focuses on aligning people and making everybody look the same. We wear the same uniform. You know, we marched the same way. 

And we do all of these things the exact same way. And it's for a reason so that there's not people standing out. And so even something as simple as like wearing sneakers, I've seen people and it just like it makes you wonder like what's going on here. And I'd be lying if I said probably a lot of people are, it's viewed as like derogatory. A lot of people, I don't know, it might even be looked down upon. Would you say that that is accurate?

Maureen Elias  8:42  

It definitely felt that way to me. There definitely seems to be some biases. I mean, you know, you want soldiers who are physically fit and able to do all the things. And so as I came into each new unit with my permanent profiles and my sneakers and also being a woman and a mother, you know, I wasn't that ideal fit for a lot of leadership. I never felt that way from my troop. So the ones that I was serving as their leader. I never felt like that. 

But I felt it myself a lot of it. I think it was my own inherent bias. And I think you mentioned the others who get out with a medical discharge, experienced some of the same feelings. And I think that was one of the reasons it took me so long to identify as a veteran because I didn't really feel like I deserved that title. Because I'd been, I mean, while it was honorable. I've kind of been kicked out, you know, I was medically discharged. 

And so I didn't feel like I earned or owned the title of veteran and there was there's you know, if I'm honest, there's still a little bit of shame that comes with the fact that I you know, was so broken I couldn't serve in the military anymore, but also recognizing that there's a different path for me and had I not gotten out then who knows, you know, my life would be where it is today. So I try to look on the positive side. Every “no” leads to a different “yes”, right?

Brock Briggs  9:59  

Yeah. Well, I think we're gonna get into this in a little bit. But I think that you getting out and certainly set up like the rest of your life to serve in kind of a different way, which I think is super cool. And you don't really know that in the moment a certain way. You worked in counterintelligence and you spent some time in Germany. Is that right? 

Maureen Elias 

Yeah. 

Brock Briggs 

Okay, this was kind of like a little off topic. But I got to do a study abroad in Heidelberg, which is just South of there. 

Maureen Elias 

Oh, okay.

Brock Briggs 

Yeah, I hadn't when I was like reading that about you. And I was like, “Oh, that's so cool.” Like, I have to ask her about that. 

Maureen Elias  10:40  

Yeah, so I got to go to a military ball in Heidelberg, actually. 

Brock Briggs

Oh, really? 

Maureen Elias

In the castle, yeah. 

Brock Briggs

Oh

Maureen Elias

That was so cool.

Brock Briggs  10:47  

I bet that was super cool. That is such a beautiful area. 

Maureen Elias

It is.

Brock Briggs 

Like, I had never really quite seen anything like that. Just the castle and we'd go up there like after school and stuff like that. It just is really a beautiful area. How long were you there for?

Maureen Elias  11:05  

We were in Germany for three years. And, you know, before this, we talked about the, we had a main base. And then I worked at a detachment. The main the main office was Heidelberg. So I went to Heidelberg quite frequently. And my husband both would realize like how young America is when you spend time in Germany, you know. You know America feels old to us who have lived in it our whole lives. But when you go to this country where like an antique is, like 500 or 600 years old. Whereas here, it's like, I don't know, 75 to 100 years old and it blows your mind a little bit. Heidelberg is gorgeous.

Brock Briggs  11:39  

It really does. It certainly gives another perspective. Unfortunately, my study abroad got cut short because of the COVID. I got there in like January of 2020. And then like, in March, my school was like, hey, it's time to come home. So it certainly was cut short. But I think that that the world view that being in another country for an extended period of time, even another layer of like perspective that the military doesn't even necessarily offer. I think that, at least from the Navy side, I was really excited to go see the world. That's, oh, I wanna travel the world, go to all these ports. 

And the reality is, you spent seven months out at sea, and you spend like three sleep deprived days in a country that where you're just trying to like, catch up on sleep and like eat some reasonable food. And there's not as much like kind of cultural immersion as you would hope to get. Do you think that that time over there three years is like a good chunk of time? Was that enough to influence your worldview? And changed it in any way?

Maureen Elias  12:53  

Oh, absolutely. You know, I grew up on a little farm in Washington State. And then when I was eight, we moved into kind of the suburbs on the other side of the mountains, near the Seattle area. And that had kind of been my whole life. Like, I've never been out of the country ever. And I came from the super tight super religious community. And so joining the army was a huge shock and then getting stationed in Germany. 

You know, my first week or two was just spent sobbing, you know. I miss my family. I was uncomfortable. And like, we didn't get to live on the base because it was full. So is this brand new husband, I just married. I think we'd been married for three weeks. And yes, we are in AIT marriage. And so we didn't hardly even know each other. I'm in this foreign country. I can't call my family because I can't afford it. And there's this time difference. And I just was like, this is awful. I don't know why I did this. 

And then we, you know, we just leaned into it. And my husband and I would just go get lost. Like literally we didn't have a car because we were private. So we were poor. So we had bicycles that we had to assemble ourselves, which was interesting. And then we would just go ride around until we got completely lost and then figure out how to get back home. And it was really the first time in my life I realized the value of being uncomfortable and how much that makes you stretch and grow in ways that you hadn't intended or maybe even wanted. But being in a foreign country did that. It also gave me so much gratitude for America, although their road system is phenomenal. And their public transportation system is amazing. 

But just helped me realize how much we do have the freedoms we have, the varieties and culture, how big America is. You know, in Germany, they talk about it's like, you know, 4 kilometers or 20 kilometers. And here we talk about distance and time because we're just that big, you know. It's five days this way, it's three hours that way. Whereas in Germany, you drive five hours, you're in another country and so it just brought in my worldview in leaps and bounds in a very, very short time. So I think I would recommend the experience of being abroad to every American just to help us realize what we have here and recognize the values those countries have that we can learn from too.

Brock Briggs  15:11  

How did you swing being stationed at the same place with your husband? Was that not like frowned upon? Or was that like, okay to do at that time or?

Maureen Elias  15:22  

So the Germany thing was actually, it's kind of a funny story, because we went to our drill sergeant and we were like, we liked each other a lot. But we don't wanna be one of those people that just hurry up and get married to stay together because there was something and there is something called the Married Army Couples Program. And so they do try to station you within 50 miles of each other when they can. But we were like, you know, let's just keep dating and see how this goes. But can you get a station together? Because we really think this is working. 

And so he worked really hard to get a station together. And then we were like, what the heck? Let's just go ahead and get married. So he was like, are you serious? But it worked out well because when we went to Germany, the military unit that we went to, they were stationed in like five different countries. And they were all centered out of Germany. So we found out that I had actually been slated for Belgium and he had been slated for Italy. And so it would have, I think, made our relationship very difficult to continue. And instead, we got to stay together in Darmstadt. But as far as like the frowning on thing, we weren't frowned on. 

But it was hard because they wouldn't let us work together. And we were the only two counterintelligence agents like that were available. So he had to go to like a staff office and work while I did counterintelligence work in the field. And then when I got pregnant, we switched. And so I went into and did like HR stuff and he worked in the field. And then we both got stationed at DLI together. So we just lucked out and did get well enough on the DLAB that they would let us go there together after Germany.

Brock Briggs  16:55  

When we were discussing topics to discuss in this conversation you alluded to and kind of pointed out some challenges that kind of have arisen with you getting out and then being a veteran, but also a like a dependent as well as an active duty person. How did that relationship kind of evolve as you got out?

Maureen Elias  17:22  

So you know, when you're a service member, like you are the priority. Everything revolves around making sure that you are always ready, right? Your education, your healthcare, your dental, even your uniforms, right? They wanna make sure you're taken care of and the day I became a dependent, it really became clear that I no longer mattered at all. That's what it felt like to the military, you know. No one, there was no follow up to make sure that I had done what I needed to do. Now, this was 15 or so years ago, things might have changed. 

But the transition for me was so stark. And I mourned that loss of identity and mattering because there is no thought given into the spouse for where you're going to move or what you're going to do. They don't care about your career or what schools your kids are in or what programs they're doing. And so it's a shock going from something that matters to really feeling like you don't matter. And I know that there is efforts to try to increase that. But that was my reality. That was my experience. 

And the other frustrating thing was, you know, because I was a military spouse. And because the majority of military spouses are women, it's never assumed that I'm a veteran. And so there were some opportunities that they might have offered if they had known that I could have taken advantage of because I was a veteran. But no one ever asked that question. And at that time, I wasn't identifying as one because I didn't even realize there were benefits that could have helped me better transition and support me better in the field. And then same thing on the VA side, you know, they looked at me only as a veteran. 

And so they would offer me all the veteran things, but no one talked to me about what they provide for military spouses on the basis. And so it's still kind of an issue. Even nowadays, I've worked really hard to try to advocate for more awareness of this population because there's actually right now, about 160,000 military spouses who qualify as veterans by the definition of the VA veteran. And yet there is no single committee or study or anything that's looking into this population and the unique transition challenges that they face. 

And so, you know, I'll go to the TRICARE for my health care and they will only look at me as a spouse. And so I have some injuries to my back as I said from when I was in and the doctor was looking at my MRI and he's like, God, if I didn't know any better, I'd swear you'd have been in the military these kinds of injuries you only see. And I was like, duh! So why is this so hard? It's not something that the DOD or the DHS now, health care system asks yet of military spouses. And I think it's also something that some of the retirees struggle with is that separation of the identities between a military spouse and or a retiree and veteran, and I think there's some work to be done to massage that between the VA and DOD.

Brock Briggs  20:20  

So does that imply that when you go in to be seen as a military spouse like under TRICARE, which is probably the right thing to do. You're not going, you can probably have more quicker access to care, I'm guessing. Are they? Is that saying that they don't have access to like the medical record of like when you were in? Is that the right way to say that?

Maureen Elias  20:48  

So it's complicated. I will say, the quicker access thing is it depends. I actually use both systems and I figure out which one I can get in faster to. And sometimes it's the VA and sometimes it's the DOD but they can't see my previous service record at all. Like that's not anything that the DOD, I know, crazy, right? But they are working to allow a little more cross sectional sharing of information between DOD and VA now. So when I go to my doctor, he can pull up and see like lab work that I had done at the VA and vice versa. 

But the big disconnect is whenever you go into the community, especially on the DOD side. No one makes sure that those records get back into your health care record. And so as a veteran whose injuries are getting to the point where they're starting to degrade and I need to increase my claim for disability, I am like trying to call all these different states that we've lived in to get those health care records from community care providers who never answered their phone to try to get it into a health care system so that I can try to get this claim put together. 

And it's been a frustrating process. But they're really, as of this moment, there really isn't a lot of consideration given on the DHS side for previous service. Now, for someone who got out later than I have, maybe that's different, but I got out of in 06. And my medical record, my whole DOD medical record is not a part of what's currently my medical record, it's only my little military spouse record.

Brock Briggs  22:11  

Yeah, that certainly seems to be an opportunity for you know, it's almost like you're when you get out, like the big slab of medical record that you get or whatever that yellow packet that you'd say, like that, when you like establish care as a dependent. It's almost like they need to get that. That's interesting, though. I'm gonna have to think about that. That's kind of an interesting problem. You kind of mentioned that there are maybe some resources that you have found or taken advantage of that where there's the overlap of those two kind of like identities that are maybe at odds. What are for anybody that might be listening, that falls into that category of veteran and dependent? What are some things that maybe people aren't taking advantage of that should be? 

Maureen Elias  23:05  

So I think it's, there's nothing out there right now that's for like if you're this and this, right? That’s not even a consideration but it's making sure that you're always assuming that whoever is come in is a military spouse and or a veteran and vice versa. So that we are at least asking the question and having the conversation. So when someone goes into, say like the employment services on base. You know, if they're not an active duty service member, you should be asking about their military service because no one told me as a military spouse about VR&E, veteran readiness and employment, used to be called Voc Rehab. 

And so I actually aged out of that program. I'm not qualified to use it because no one had that conversation with me as a military spouse. And then as a veteran, I wasn't using the VA Health Care System for about 10 years because since we were moving all the time, it just was easier to go through TRICARE, right? Because I knew everything would move with me. I didn't have to request any records transferred. All of that happened automatically. And so you know, no one within the DOD or DHS system was having conversations with me about the care that the VA could have provided for me. 

And I will say, I've just recently started going to the VA for my health care about a year and a half ago. And the difference in care as a woman is startling. You know, when I would go to the DOD side and go in and complain of back pain. I have arthritis basically tip to tail. You know, it would take four or five appointments until I finally got connected to the help I needed. Whereas at the VA, I went in one time I explained what's going on and I had a PT and OT, they sent me a heating pad and they sent me the medication that I needed. And then you know, they had me do a pain consult to make sure that all of that was enough to get me through which was such a stark difference to how I was treated on the DOD, DHS side.

Brock Briggs  25:02  

What's the disconnect there? Why? And that, I mean, that goes to tell you like that's the care that our active duty folks are getting. It's like, I was having this conversation with somebody talking about getting out and trying to understand your disability. When you're getting out, when you go to talk to the VA and was pointing out that your entire military career, you're taught to suppress things that get in the way of you doing your job. You physically need to be able to perform. You need to maintain a security clearance. So everything you shove it down. 

And then I think when it comes time to talk to the VA, you know, you're mentally still we're shoving it down and “Oh, nothing's wrong.” And but that also can flip on its head too, and say, “Oh, everything's wrong.” So yeah, I think that what you're saying kind of highlights, hey, like our active duty folks are having this type of care where they have to go through five or six appointments. What's the problem?

Maureen Elias  26:13  

I don't know that I can speak to DOD policy. I haven't been on active duty for so long. I will say, you know, my husband, I watched him suppressed for years. And then the year as he prepares for retirement. He finally started going in and getting seen and it was it's a challenge, you know. And I think part of it is that focus, right? We're focusing on the service members, so we can patch them up and get them back in the field and the service member being reticent to go seek help because you don't wanna get taken from the field because you don't want that impact on your career. Whereas the VA and I'm only speaking to my experience, I'm not to policy. At the VA, I feel like they're there to take care of my whole person. 

And so when I go in for an appointment, they asked about the whole spectrum. And my provider always asked me, what else? Is there anything we haven't talked about that we should? It's just a different mindset, you know. I'm not, I don't feel like a number they're trying to drum through to just patch me up and send me back. I feel like a human being who's cared about and I recognize that that's not the experience for every veteran, but that has definitely been mine since coming to the VA. Whereas at the DOD, still, you know, where I get my care, I often feel like I'm a number. And now as a retiree spouse, I don't know if you're familiar with the differences, but we kind of go to the end of the queue. 

And so now we're going through this new transition, where as a military spouse, I was a little higher priority. And now as a retiree spouse is like if we have time and if we can fit you in, otherwise you're going into the community, which of course, usually means a longer wait time. And so there's some work to be done, I think, to make the DOD system better recognize or the DHS system better recognize that, you know, spouses, children, we are also their customers and need to be taken care of. And there's some room for improvement on how they're doing that.

Brock Briggs  28:04  

You're kind of in this weird like Venn Diagram of like, we've got three or four different circles that are like all overlapping. It's like, okay, we've got veteran, we've got spouse, we've got this, we've got that and kind of this weird little middle section here. But it's things like that that give unique perspective, I think. And so it's, somebody's gotta do it. So thankful that you are going through that and taking your learnings and kind of applying them, which I think is really neat. Kind of we've totally diverted, but that's okay. 

This is we'll touch on a little bit of everything. Wanna kinda get back to your career a little bit and getting out of the service. You spent a long time as a stay at home mom before like kind of reentering the workforce. First of all, like hats off to you like I think being a stay at home mom is probably one of the few higher callings than joining the military. I think in my opinion, that's a very tough thing. So hats off there. What brought you back or started the thought process thinking about going back to work?

Maureen Elias  29:22  

So first off, I totally agree with you stay at home mom, one of the hardest things I've ever done. And I did some pretty crazy stuff in the military. So hats off to those who are in the SLOG and stay at home dads, stay at home grandparents, like providing care for children as a sole job is just hard and just wanna recognize that.

So you're gonna laugh. But we were kind of poor. My husband was a staff sergeant and I was a stay at home. And so I went back to school to get the post 9/11 GI Bill had just passed like literally and so I actually just went back to school to get a paycheck. It was not even about thinking about reentry into career. My children were still young. And so I went back and I got a bachelor's degree and man did I realize how much I missed a career and employment. But the time wasn't ready yet for me. 

So I got my bachelor's degree and just went back to being a stay at home mom. I actually tried to get a job actually after getting my bachelor's degree. So I got a bachelor's in Psychology from Campbell University. I graduated summa cum laude. And the only job that I could get was as a temporary seasonal gift wrapper at a department store with a bachelor's degree. Like that was all I could find. There just wasn't a lot of opportunity in the community. And I hadn't yet learned to highlight the soft skills that I had learned as a stay at home mom, as well as the skills I brought for the military. So part of that was on me. 

And part of that was just there wasn't the right opportunity. And so I just went back to being a stay at home mom and realized like, this is life, right? And I'm just gonna focus on my kids. And we actually had a third, who is also on the spectrum. So I raised three kids on the spectrum and that just was my life and supporting my spouse and his military career. And then we moved to Fort Meade, Maryland. And my husband was like, we're here for three years, go get a Master's degree, don't waste your GI Bill. Because at the time, the GI Bill expired after 15, which that no longer happens anymore, which is really great. 

But for me, it's gonna expire and you're gonna lose this benefit. So again, I went back to school just to collect a paycheck, which sounds so trite right now, but like that was the reality of our financial situation. So then though, I went back to school and this had been about a decade after being out. And within about two weeks, I was about ready to drop out. I just felt so different and alone. And you know, it was all these 22, 23 year olds that had very little world experience. They were very different from me. I came in as this like crusty old autism mom and it just didn't really connect. 

And then I found out about this student veteran chapter that we had at our campus. And it was the guy that does your GI Bill paperwork at school was like, “Hey, have you checked this out?” And I was like, “No, I haven't.” So I made my way over to the military Resource Center. And it was like, aahh, the heavens opened. And I had found my people. And like the first day and they were like, “Oh, my gosh, fresh blood. Will you be our secretary?” And I was like, “Okay, cool.” And then three months later, our president had to step down. She was ROTC and just really needed to focus on getting her grades up. 

And so I went from being like Secretary to President in three months, and then discovered Student Veterans of America and brought my chapter in. And for me, that was the tipping point. That was what changed things because up until then, I still thought I was just going to go back to being a stay at home mom. And the program had Student Veterans of America helped me recognize A. the value I had as a veteran and B. the leadership skills that I didn't even realize that I had. And so I went to their regional Summit and then ended up being selected for their annual leadership summit. And that just completely changed the trajectory of life. 

So I went from the student veteran leadership training and then got accepted into the veterans and global leadership Fellowship, which is a program that basically like, it was kind of, I don't know what to call like a speaker series, where they brought a bunch of like veteran leaders to come talk to us and mentor us. We were all pretty much still in college or had just finished college. And we're in that weird part of your career where you're figuring things out. And they were so inspiring. And then I learned about advocacy. 

And I got slipped into this program called the High Ground Veterans Advocacy Fellowship. And that was where I found my passion. And like, I didn't know what advocacy was. And I remember walking into the first day of the training and like one of the guys had ran for office. One of the guys had already had a bill passed. And truth be told, I didn't really understand the difference between the House and the Senate. I thought Congress was a different thing. And like, I realized I was not prepared for this. 

And by the time I finished the fellowship, the training was so complete and so comprehensive, that I was ready and empowered and had started moving the needle forward on the issue that I brought and it was like crack. Now, I was almost done with my degree program and therapy. And so I was like, oh, my gosh, I don't wanna do therapy anymore. I wanna do this. What do I do? I have like two classes left. And my husband was like, stay the course. A master's is a master's, so I didn't drop out. And instead, my career went a totally different direction.

Brock Briggs  34:34  

That sounds like such a tipping point. There's a lot to kind of unpack there. I think that sometimes in life, it's very easy to kind of be unsure of what's going on and you're kind of like just trying to figure it out. But there are certain like little moments or events in time just chance to fade or divine intervention or whatever you wanna call it. That something happens. And then all of this stuff just like comes whooshing down on you. And you just know that it's right because there's like literally no way else that that could have happened otherwise. 

I think that one of the most important things I think you highlighted there, I wanna get into the value of is getting plugged in with your student veteran organization at your school, when you're going back. I can speak to that because I didn't do that right away. It took me a while to kind of like start meeting people. I just when I got out, I was like, okay, I'm going to school and I'm gonna get my degree as fast as possible. And just like, would go home and study no extracurriculars, nothing. And that was such a mistake because of the opportunities that are missed by plugging in with people of similar spirit and similar kind of motivations and goals. You need those people around you.

Maureen Elias  36:02  

Yes, I totally agree. And I think, you know, having, once I got into SVA, I realized just the value of plugging into my school in general, right? And that experience because you learn a different, you know, “brotherhood” you know. So I not only became the student veteran president, but I ran for the Graduate Student Association, Vice President and became the vice president of that and then started another organization to help the counseling students pass their comprehensive exam and was a huge volunteer on campus. 

And just being a part of that brick and mortar community was really so pivotal to and taught me so many things that have helped me in the work field. And I think some of it too was the volunteer stuff, right? So the way you lead in the military is very different than the way you lead a troop of volunteers. You just, it's a different language. It's a different world, it’s different motivations and had I not

Brock Briggs  36:56  

Not like yell, I'm guessing. 

Maureen Elias  36:57  

Yeah, I was never a yeller. But just, you know, there's no force compliance, like a volunteer can be like, I'm out. I don't wanna do this. And then there's, you know, there's other personalities that play and things. So, you know, student veteran chapters are essential. And I would yes and that and say, also get involved into, you know, whether it be like the Greek of gosh, I can't remember what they are but it’s at the top of my head right now. 

But like the Greek programs that have sororities and fraternities and like the bike tours and the, you know, recruiting events and campus events that they have, that was what really helped shape and define the way that I would lead in the years to come. And I didn't even realize it was happening at the time. I was just trying to get the most out of my college experience. But yes, finding your people helped.

Brock Briggs  37:46  

What is the main goal or objective of Student Veterans of America? Because I've heard about it from a few people here and there. But it wasn't something that if there was a chapter at my school, I was unaware of it. So what is like their main goal and objective and what kind of value is brought to people from participating?

Maureen Elias  38:07  

So Jared Lyon would probably be best suited. He's their CEO, but for me, the value of SVA was finding a new community. It was giving me empowerment to be a leader. And then, so it was kind of empowering today's students to be leaders tomorrow, in a nutshell. And so you build your community. You find your people that you feel supported. And they are gonna equip you with tools for success in the future, as well as if you go into your chapter leadership experience. And so I think the biggest focus is building that community and helping student veterans feel seen on the campus. 

And then an additional layer of that is advocacy, right? And they teach us how to advocate like how to better support students that are veterans on your campus. And so we did quite a bit of that. And they actually have a national advocacy program where they're constantly working to improve benefits for veterans, making sure that for profit schools that are bad actors are being called to the carpet to answer, making sure that our benefits are protected and expanded. They do a lot of that work nationally. 

But I think on the beauty is that it's kind of a grassroots organization and that you create these chapters and you empower leaders who then empower the next set of leaders to then empower the next set of leaders to make sure that student veterans feel comfortable on the campus and have every opportunity to succeed. 

Brock Briggs  39:30  

There are so many resources out there and I think that this goes into the category of one of the you know, great ones that offers a lot of value for getting involved in it. I think that and part of why this podcast exists is to bring awareness to things like those because as somebody who sometimes like talking to people like you, I look back on my time in school like getting out and like trying to understand and take advantage of everything that I feel like I was just blind. I must have just had my eyes closed to all of these things because there are a cornucopia of resources out there really just as a matter of like reaching out and trying to get involved in some way.

Maureen Elias  40:20  

Yeah, you know, and I didn't know about this through my undergrad. And I think that's why I wasn't very successful leaving. You know, I went in. I did my school. And I left and I went home and I was actually like, sometimes my husband was bringing the brand new baby. I just had like a nursery in the car in between classes. And so I just was a ghost, you know. No one knew who I was on the campus for my undergrad. And so when I went back for my masters, I thought it was gonna be the same way. And then this program changed everything. 

But I only found about it through word of mouth. And I think, as veterans, we definitely tend to trust one another. And so when someone's like, hey, this program was great. And it worked for me, that gives a legitimacy to an organization that they could never buy, right? And so I think there's so many VSOs out there. And so learning which ones are right and which ones are helpful for you in this time and moment is helpful. And sometimes it's hard to wade through those resources or even know where to go to look for them. I think you're spot on. There's a lot of resources out there and we just don't even know or know where to go to find it.

Brock Briggs  41:21  

I have a couple questions, comments, concerns about veterans service organizations. I'm gonna get to that in just a minute. You mentioned that you were going for, I believe, I have here a mental health counseling Master's. So there was clearly like a focus on counseling and but you're pointing to that your focus really shifted to more of a veterans advocacy, was just getting connected with these organizations. What brought about that change or I kind of like putting together and piecing together a timeline of your history. I'm imagining this lightbulb moment of you kind of like remembering that you're a veteran and being like, no, like this is my calling and feeling like you need to kind of like give back. Is that kind of what it was like or something different? 

Maureen Elias  42:17  

I remember the exact moment when I was like, oh, no, I can't do this. And I was, I had just started my clinical rotation. Maybe that's not the right word. But I just started my internship at Johns Hopkins. And I'm sitting there in my first session, listening to someone tell me all the reasons they can't do this thing that I know scientifically, will improve their life. And the thought of that for the rest of my life was like, I can't do this. You know, I went back to school to get a master's in mental health because I wanted to help veterans with PTSD and realized that was not the right fit for my skill set. And I wanted to make change on a larger level. 

And so it was in the middle of that internship that I had the fellowship that taught me about advocacy. And that's where that light bulb moment was like, I can still help veterans with PTSD but just at a different level at a national level. And there aren't a lot of people with the clinical therapeutic or psychological training in the advocacy space. So you have people who don't have that background, making healthcare decisions for a population that they're not representing. And so it was totally a light bulb, like you literally could have seen it when that moment hit like, oh, my gosh, I can use what I've learned to impact and improve things for the population I want to serve but just in a different way.

Brock Briggs  43:43  

Well, I think that there's certainly value to both like we need people like on the ground handling individual issues because, well, for obvious reasons, but we also need to drive change like at a higher level as well. You know, a lot of going through that process. I'm sure you recognize a lot of problems of things that needed to be changed. And the only way that we change that is through change of policy. And, you know, like you said, advocating for bigger and better resources for veterans as a whole.

Maureen Elias  44:20  

Yes, yeah, I think you're spot on. And yes, I hope I did not negate the value of those who are in the field serving one on one because they are the true heroes. They are super underpaid. So putting in a plug like if you pay a mental health professional, you definitely should be paying them more. 

And they have had a huge difference in my own life. You know, I have sought and got great help through the VA. And had someone not been willing to do that work, I would still be struggling with the things I was struggling with before so but and having the experiences of being in the field definitely made me a better advocate because I could say what you're trying to do here is clinically impossible. 

You know, you want a veteran who's coming in and crisis to answer some 100 question three hour slog before you treat them. There's no way that a therapist is gonna be able to build a clinical relationship if you're doing this. You have to end but because I've had the experiences, I was definitely able to better demonstrate like how that policy would impact the individual provider and veteran back when I was an advocate. So it was really helpful.

Brock Briggs  45:24  

One of the things that I feel very passionate about is getting every single person not just veterans, but getting people working towards things that they are uniquely suited to do. And because we all have something. It’s just kind of a matter of finding what that is. What was part of that lightbulb moment where you saw that hey, I'm not suited for this? Because I think that sometimes it's the conversation that's given to you when you're young. 

And especially when you're in school, it's like, well, what do you wanna do when you grow? Who do you wanna be when you grow up? And the question should probably be pitched the other way. And is kind of asking, it should be asking, what do you not want to do? Because that's, you know, when you start out with infinity things that you could be doing, it's overwhelming. And thinking about, oh, you know, I don't like this part of whatever this career is. You can eliminate that and then kind of move on. What was it specifically in that field that where you had the realization this isn't for me?

Maureen Elias  46:36  

So actually, it gives me a chance to talk about another org that I love and that's the Travis Manion Foundation. I don't know if you've heard of them. But they, is an organization that is based on the friendship of two Academy grads, Brendan Looney and Travis Manion and they both were killed in action overseas. And Travis man in right before he deployed for the second time had been in the Eagles game with his family. And they were like, you know, just don't go. You know, we, you know, you've already been there. You don't have to serve again, like, you know, find something that's broken and don't go and he turned around. 

And he was like, If not me, then who? And that's kind of become the sounding cry of that organization. And they had a transition workshop which seems weird to go through. Like, you know, 12 years after I got out of the military, but I was transitioning back into school and hoping to go back into the workforce. And they did something called the Character Strengths Assessment. And I've never heard of that before. And it basically takes there's like a list of 21 different strengths that everyone has. Some are just stronger than others. 

And what I realized as I took that test, my top strengths weren't really aligned with the career that I was kind of moving towards. And I realized that's why I wasn't feeling as fulfilled as a one on one therapist and in the direction I was going because that didn't align with my character strengths. And so that was really that like, “Aha moment” where it's like, oh, this is why I'm struggling. Okay, let me try to go in a different direction that aligns better with the strengths and the skill sets that I had. So that was super helpful. And it's online and it's free. If you just go to VIA, you can take that test for free. And I think experience is a big one, right? Like you talked about, you know, you don't really know you don't wanna do it until you try it. 

And so you know, I have two young kids that are going into college. And I'm like, take all the classes. Don't tell me what your major is yet. Just take all the classes you can. You have to take them anyway. And then start to see what excites you, what ignites your passion, what homework you procrastinate, because that will let you know what you do and don't like so much better than trying to figure it out on your own, right? It's gonna come to you, you know, the class that you always try to get an excuse to not go to or the class that you feel sick every morning. You're like, maybe I have strep throat and I don't have to go. That's not what you love. 

And so start pivoting towards the things that you enjoy, that you've loved, that ignite your passion. And that just makes it so much easier. You know, the job I have now, all those things, you know, it ignites my passion. I'm not a morning person. Truth be told, I'm kind of mean. And yet I'm up at 6am to get ready for this job. I work 12 hours a day. And I love it because it aligns with my character strengths. It's something I'm experiencing and I'm loving. I don't know if that helps answer your question. It's kind of long answer, but

Brock Briggs  49:34  

No, it does. I think that that's really good. And I think that it's easy to think that you're suited for anything and everything but the reality is you're not and the quicker that you can figure out what those strengths are and kind of work to that. I think the quicker you can find what that job or that career that does make you excited to get up in the morning. And to give you a little bit of a plug, we don't have to get into it too much. 

But you're now the adviser to the Chief of Staff at the Department of Veteran Affairs, which is, first of all, a mouthful of a title. But given your like background and like history and the things that you care about, I can't imagine a better person for the role. Like, that's so cool. And to hear your story and like how your passions are kind of playing into this role. That's super cool.

Maureen Elias  50:31  

So actually, as of today, I am actually officially the Deputy Chief of Staff. Just got promoted. 

Brock Briggs  50:36  

Oh wow! Congratulations! 

Maureen Elias

Thank you. Thank you!

Brock Briggs

As of today, a Saturday?

Maureen Elias  50:43  

Yep, I think it's the first of the pay period. 

Brock Briggs  50:47  

Oh, okay. It’s all about the pay periods. Okay. 

Maureen Elias

Yeah 

Brock Briggs 

Congratulations! 

Maureen Elias

Thank you. Thank you. 

Brock Briggs 

Super cool. Well, hopefully this can be the first announcement of your new role if it hasn't hit LinkedIn yet.

Maureen Elias  51:00  

It has not. I'm holding, we have a swearing coming up next week. So I'm kind of holding to share that. But yeah, so as we talk about, you know, the unique skills and things, this is one of those times where once again, I'm getting the opportunity to lean in and be uncomfortable and take those skills that have been identified and bring them to the table to serve, you know, so kind of excited.

Brock Briggs  51:24  

I heard an analogy a while back, somebody explained and they were kind of pointing out, you're talking about the value of being uncomfortable. And it's almost like you really need to be in positions that are kind of like outclassing you a little bit. Like because if somebody is offering you a job and you don't feel like you're qualified for it, you need to understand that your leaders think that you're qualified for it. 

And that is like such a big vote of confidence. And that's I really underscores the importance of playing up field and not downfield, when it comes to like your career. People call that I don't know working yourself out of a job or doing your boss's job or whatever it is. But by playing up field, I think you give your leadership a chance to put you in uncomfortable situations because I think the reality is you're not gonna be ready a lot of the time.

Maureen Elias  52:26  

Yeah, that's so funny. And I know you've interviewed Kate Germano. And at the time, when I was doing some coaching with her, I had an opportunity to work for the house Veterans Affairs Committee. And that was definitely a scary decision. It was definitely out of my comfort field. And I mean, I had been an advocate and I understood how to advocate but the whole how the hill works was a mystery to me. And so she actually said like, the next job that you're going for should always scare you a little. If not, you're not reaching high enough. 

And the line that your leaders think you can do it is hit and hard right now for sure. I know they wouldn't have selected me for this if they didn't think that I had the capabilities. And you know, it's a stretch moment. And so it's another thing I would add to that is always be preparing you're the next leader, right? And I started that way back at SVA, that was something that they taught us because, you know, one of the troubles is that chapters wane and grow. 

And so if you're making sure that you're developing the next leader, you make sure that that program or that organization that you've developed is ready to be handed off to the next leader. And I've seen some of that happen with some of the newer VSOs that are coming out where you see a little bit of the founder syndrome and they're not making sure that the next leader is prepared and ready to take over so that they are free to move into that next stretch opportunity. So yeah, great point.

Brock Briggs  53:58  

I do wanna take some time and talk about some of the veteran service organizations and just veteran organizations generally. You've highlighted a couple, but I wanna at least first start with talking about them more broadly. I put in our notes here as we were kind of preparing for this conversation that as I have kind of re entered the veteran space, especially with this podcast, I've  realized that veteran organizations are really a dime a dozen, like there are so, so many. 

And that sounds bad saying that there's really no amount of or no limit to the amount of support that we should be giving to our veterans. But surely there are some that are more impactful and kind of, I don't know, I don't want it to sound like I'm degrading anybody. But I guess from your experience, having worked with several work in several, what are the ones that are really standing out? What sets them apart? And uniquely sets them up to tackle whatever it is that they're going after?

Maureen Elias  55:13  

Sure, that's a great question. And yes, there are a lot of organizations out there. And I hear a lot of individuals who kind of rude that there are too many. And recognize there are some nefarious players in the space, that's gonna happen anywhere, right? So we're gonna take in the various players out of this conversation. And so, you know, each organization serves a purpose. And the thing that I've noticed is the smaller, more niche ones, those are the ones that struggle because it's hard to get funding and they tend to be in a community and have a limited pool of veterans to draw from. 

But for those veterans that come into their program, it is life changing. And so I think there's definitely some room for more support, collaboration and coordination across the younger, newer, smaller orgs. And recognize sometimes, you know, they start off in an org together, they have very different visions, and they go off to follow their dreams. But and then there's the traditional ones. And I know that a lot of our generation hates the traditional orgs, right? Especially like the hat ones, but they serve a purpose, right? 

And they're the ones that are on the hill advocating hard and heavy for the big changes. And there's definitely been, you know, I've seen it. There's been some of the not wanting to let the smaller, younger, newer orgs come into play because they don't play rights or they don't look the way that they think they should look or they don't act the way that they should. And yet, I value the importance of having as many people at the table as possible so that we're actually having a real conversation. 

But for me, what I look for when you're asking about like what stands out or what sets an organization apart, is how do the veterans talk about the program when they're done with it, right? Because I've heard of some fellowships, which look really amazing. And when a veteran is done, they're like, eh it's a resume bullet, you know. I didn't get a whole lot out of it. And there's some who come out and their whole life has completely changed. And so to me, what helps them stand out and stand apart is the impact that they have on that individual veteran. Because you can say, you know, I have a fellowship to serve 20,000 veterans every year. 

But if they're all like meh, it was a resume bullet, are you really serving them, right? Other than maybe making the resume look better. But there's an organization that serves two veterans per year with equine therapy. And that completely changed their life, helps them find their groove, helps them reintegrate in their community. And to me, that's a huge success. So what I'm always listening for is what was the experience like for you. And do you feel like there's value there? I don't know if it's a fair set of standards. But that's what I use, especially for the ones that I am looking into joining myself.

Brock Briggs  57:56  

No, I like that. I think that measuring the impact is a much more effective gauge of I guess, you can't use effectiveness twice in the same sentence, but an effective gauge of the effectiveness of the, you know, the impact. What are you seeing in terms of problems that maybe aren't being solved in the veteran space? We talked a little bit about you pointing out some like medical issues with kind of misalignment in terms of like the spouse/veteran? Are there any other issues that stand out to you particularly that you would love to see somebody going after? 

Maureen Elias  58:44  

Yes, I have a few. That's a great question. I didn't tell you to answer that. But I'm sorry to ask that. But I'm so glad you did. So one is that the economy between military spouses who are veterans. They are just an underserved population. And I think if anyone's looking for an organization to start, that's the one to do. Because it is a population that will continue to exist. And until the DOD realizes the value of making sure that married military couples, like dual military couples and do everything they can to support them in their families, women especially are going to continue to leave and become this military veteran spouse population. 

I think the numbers that I saw was around 93% are women who leave the military of military couples. So that's a whole unmet need out there and like you can go to a veteran thing and if you go to a mill spouse thing, but like me, you're gonna fall through the cracks because no one's making sure you're aware of everything. Another thing that I see that is making me crazy, is you slap a program, you put a program together that's really thoughtful and comprehensive for a veteran, and then you slap in military spouses, right? 

Or you make a women veteran program and you slap in military spouses but you actually don't do anything to really make sure that the program you're creating is actually tailored toward and supports military spouses. I am, that is one of my biggest pet peeves. And I see it happening over and over and over. Oh, yeah, we should include military spouses. Oh, yeah, you know, and then I think the one population that is just completely ignored. And I think the challenge there would be funding, but I think is an important one is veteran spouses. So you were a military spouse, your veteran gets out. 

And now your veteran spouse and all of that wonderful support that you had, unless your service member retired, which majority don't, is gone and you're still living with this person. And trying to, you know, we talked about the value of veteran, the identity of a veteran military spouse has an identity now too. And when you leave, that's gone and there's nothing. There's not, you know, I leave the military, I'm a veteran. Now, I'm just I don't I'm married to a vet. We don't even have a title for it yet. And that's a population that I think there is a big need for support for there's a lack of resources for.

And I think, especially within the mental health space, there's just a big need for support whether that be support as someone who's an unofficial caregiver or support as you yourself, make that transition and figure out how life goes on because you're moving too. You know, usually you get out your service member retires or gets out and you're all moving. So you've lost whatever resources you had in that community, as well as your resources as a spouse. I think there's just some of the big problems that I'm not seeing solved. We've definitely seen that the newer orgs are doing a great job at helping veterans find what works for them now, right? 

The post 9/11 vets most of us, we come out. We want to do community service. We wanna become leaders. We wanna do things. We don't wanna sit at a bar. And so you know, they're doing a good job of that. But I think there's a couple of more niche populations that are getting ignored. And I think IVMF is starting to probe into some research for the military spouses who are veterans and it would be exciting to see if and when that research comes to pass. Senator Hirono tried to get some language into the NDAA for an actual research on military spouse struggles who are veterans but we're just not getting a lot of movement yet. But I'm not dead yet. So we're gonna keep pushing that needle.

Brock Briggs  1:02:22  

I like that attitude. That's the right approach, I think. Have you gone through any process of like pursuing funding when you've been a part of any of these organizations?

Maureen Elias  1:02:37  

Not so for highground veteran advocacy, actually, you have to fundraise for your own Fellowship, which is $2,000. And so I got to experience it for that. But then and then for when I was on the Veterans Health Council of Vietnam Veterans of America, we did a little bit of grant work, but not a lot. Most of the times the organizations that I've served in have a specific department for it. And I've heard from friends that have built up. One of my friends, Lindsay Church, has built up Minority Veterans of America from the ground with Katherine Pratt. And I've watched how hard they did and still do have to work for fundraising because they're a newer org, even though they represent a population that traditionally hasn't been represented by the big older or sort of hasn't been as front and center of their policies.

Brock Briggs  1:03:22  

We can maybe just kind of skim the surface on this, then if you don't have a ton of experience, but I would love to hear how you think people should be positioning, getting funding for their organization? Because you essentially have, I think that money is the big problem for a lot of these things. And that's why a lot of these things exist and probably why a lot of them don't kind of hang on because they need money to operate. 

And your two choices are maybe go get grants from state federal government or get donations from people. And both are extremely hard. So in your experience, have you found anything particularly effective for the positioning around that? How people should go about that? I know, I have a couple of people that are involved in VSOs that listen to the show. Where do you think that people should be looking to kind of get the funding for their organization that they might need?

Maureen Elias  1:04:24  

Sure. And I'll just say top level, it's a complicated one. You know, the older traditional orgs are membership base and that's where a lot of their funding come. Whereas, you know, all the post 9/11 vets, the back of our T shirts have all those corporate sponsors, you know. And it's interesting to hear the traditional VSOs talk about the personal lemons and vice versa. I say I think one of the most untapped resources for donations is the health care space. 

And I say that because there are organizations out there like pharm, oh my goodness, I can't talk. Pharma, Pfizer, Bio, that all have therapeutics and devices that assist veterans and they want to help support veterans. They care. But there's definitely been this like negative connotation, we're taking money from big pharma. And we worked with a lot of these organizations when I was on the Veterans Health Council. And they were like, we don't care if our stuff is branded. We just wanna help veterans, tell us what we can do. And then I think it's about something that Wounded Warrior Project started to do that I liked a lot was building collaborations between orgs where they would go for grants together. 

And you could see that double impact. And they also had kind of a greater outreach to the different populations because like Vietnam veterans aren't gonna be hanging out with Wounded Warrior Project veterans, traditionally because Wounded Warrior only serves post 911 and Vietnam Veterans of America only serves Vietnam veterans. I mean, they have other programs, of course, like Hillary's and stuff. But traditionally, membership wise, that's who they focus on. And so it brought some of these together and something like combined arms down in Texas, where I think the key to successful fundraising is collaboration. But we don't always play together well in this space. And so I think there's some room to grow in thinking differently and thinking critically about now that there's less funding, how do we make that funding more impactful?

Brock Briggs  1:06:27  

Well, I think you pointed out that a lot of the veteran organizations are kind of exclusionary, which I don't know that there are specific populations that need designated attention. But at the end of the day, we're all going after the same things. You know, we are pursuing better care for veterans as a whole, you know, and regardless of the population, we wanna make sure that people are getting the equal attention that they deserve. 

But I think a little bit of that exclusionary nature of some of them, really. It doesn't incentivize them to work together and realize that, hey, that you're not enemies. You're competing for the same money, but you can, you know, by coming together, you maybe become something greater than just each individual.

Maureen Elias  1:07:22  

I can actually give you a great example of that. So when I was at DVA, about five years ago, we worked with Wounded Warrior Project and the tragedy assistance program for survivors. And we worked on toxic exposure awareness, you know. Now we look at this PACT Act, which is this huge piece of legislation that's close to passage, perhaps. And we were just at that point, letting veterans know, post 911 veterans know about their toxic exposures. And Vietnam Veterans of America was a part of it because they were like, we went through this with Agent Orange and no one told us. 

And, you know, never again shall one veteran leave another behind. Let's let this generation know that they need to get screened for their toxic exposures and they need to advocate for what's happening to their bodies because of the burn pits and things like that. And so, you know, some of the exclusionary part is necessary, unfortunately. Like you have to have a population you serve, especially if you're a C19. And you can find ways to work together, you know, for TAPs being a part of that it was helping the survivors know that if your veteran died from toxic exposure, you might be eligible for benefits and or we advocate for you to be eligible for benefits.

And watching that magic that happened, it was really cool to see the orgs work together. And when we work together, things like PACT Act are possible. You know, look at this huge, like, almost $300 billion piece of legislation that's about to come out because all the VSOs even the little or smaller ones, are banding together and supported this and the magic happens there when we collaborate. It's just hard to do sometimes.

Brock Briggs  1:08:53  

Very hard, indeed. One of my last big questions for you here as, you talked earlier about measuring impact. And maybe that's the answer to the question that I'm about to ask. But I think one of the ongoing issues that I see in the Veteran Service Organization space is we're trying to bring awareness and to things that like okay, you know, we're gonna bring awareness to this and then maybe nothing changes. How do we keep that from happening? How do we keep the conversation going after we have like an awareness campaign? And, you know, then that's like a two month campaign. It's Veteran Awareness month for this. How do we keep that conversation alive and not just leave it there?

Maureen Elias  1:09:52  

Okay, thank you. I appreciate that. And I love that question. I think, so one of my favorite phrases is “Data makes us credible. But stories make us memorable”, right? And as we look at how to keep the conversation going, we've raised awareness, right? And then once the awareness happens, then we work to create programming to support whatever that is. And that's where I think sometimes the disconnect occurs because programming is way more expensive and takes a lot more, you know, resources than just raising awareness. 

And so and then following that, right? So you raise the awareness, you create the programming, and then you need to measure the impact like we talked about. And so I'm actually seeing that happening with an organization that I'm involved in called the Armed Services Arts Partnership. And I don't know if you've heard about it. But their whole goal is bridging the gap between veterans and their communities through the arts. And so they teach things for free to veterans, caregivers, survivors, and their family members like acting, storytelling, stand up comedy, improv, drawing. 

And so they raised the awareness of the gaps in the community. And then they built the programming to help bridge that gap. And now they're starting to measure the impact, right? And so they just had a big survey that came back. And they found that the participants in ASAP, it improves their resilience, their confidence and their self esteem, their stress and their sense of belonging. And so now, you know, that your programming is bridging that gap or that thing that we're raising awareness for and then you grow and develop, right? 

And I think that's kind of how SVA came to be the great magic that it was. It realized that, you know, student veterans needed more support on campus or worked hard to raise awareness. And then they built their programming to make sure that student veterans were empowered to fix those problems. And then now they're measuring the impact and seeing it grow. And the programming, gosh! I mean, I remember when this started, there was maybe 900 to 1000 chapters and now they're in the 1000s. And it's just growing and growing and growing and so. And on top of that, you know, you're gonna saturate your population at some point. And that's where those collaborations come in because you get others to carry on your messaging with you but they're carrying it and reaching a different audience. To me, I think that that's the route to success, I think.

Brock Briggs  1:12:21  

No, I like that. Not leaving it at just the awareness thing and having a plan for how to fix or maybe not fix, but work towards establishing a long term solution for that is. 

Maureen Elias 

Yes

Brock Briggs  

The implementation is the most important thing. It's not just, hey, look at us, you know, we need to talk about this more. It doesn't stop there.

Maureen Elias  1:12:48  

And then fact checking to make sure that your plan is having the impact that you hope that it is. Otherwise you're gonna change your plan, right?

Brock Briggs  1:12:57  

Need to backpedal a little bit, right? Got to make a new plant. 

Maureen Elias 

Yes

Brock Briggs

Maureen, this conversation has been incredibly insightful into some of the veterans service organizations and some interesting issues that I really wasn't aware of prior to this. Thank you so much for your time today. Where can people go to learn more about you, reach out, support you in any way?

Maureen Elias  1:13:21  

I think the best way to reach out to me is through LinkedIn. The messages there tend to pop up faster than email or phone calls. Because usually I don't have time for any of those during the day. So at night, I come home. I take a breath and I hit LinkedIn. So that's probably the easiest way to find me.

Brock Briggs  1:13:34  

Okay, I'll be sure to put a link to that in the show notes so people can find you. Thank you so much, Maureen! 

Maureen Elias  1:13:40  

Thank you. I appreciate it.